Are the rulings in Upper Deck Entertainment different/outdated?

[roadhouse007]

...I differ and here r my reasons imagine the scenario.-

1.- Player A attacks and passes to player B
2.- Player B does nothing and passes to Player A
3.- Player A activates Book of Moon on the opponent´s monster
4.-Player B can´t activate "Sakuretsu Armor" because the Timing of activation pass...

The bolded text is incorrect. The last thing to happen that is, for lack of a better way of saying it, definite and is true. What I mean is a monster is attacking still, and sakaretsu armor can be activated when a monster is attacking. It is the correct timing.

Compare it to the situation with a monarch. The monarch activates the ability immediately, and the opponent activates Torrential Tribute.

1. Monarch Ability (It doesn't matter, pick your favorite)
2. Torrential

Chain resolution > Torrential destroys all monsters on the field. > Monarch ability resolves unless the target was destroyed by torrential.

I use this in comparison to show how the last thing to happen for sure was the summon in this case. Just because an ability was added to the chain, the window for activation is always the last thing to happen successfully......except for counter traps. They have to be activated in the chain immediately after what triggers them.

 

[Digital Jedi]

...I differ and here r my reasons imagine the scenario.-

1.- Player A attacks and passes its priority to player B
2.-Player B do nothing and passes priority back to Player A
3.-Player A usess it´s priority and activates Book of Moon to the opponent´s monster
4.-Player B can´t activate "Sakuretsu Armor" because the Timing of activation pass...

That has been at the core of the discussion of this part of the thread. While a consecutive pass would ordinarily seem like a missed opportunity, it would seem we've been instructed by the higer-ups that this is not the case. You can pass during an attack declaration, and still have chance to respond to that same attack later, even if your opponent has passed back to you.

 

[Lord Hades]

Compare it to the situation with a monarch. The monarch activates the ability immediately, and the opponent activates Torrential Tribute.

1. Monarch Ability (It doesn't matter, pick your favorite)
2. Torrential

Chain resolution > Torrential destroys all monsters on the field. > Monarch ability resolves unless the target was destroyed by torrential.

...I compare it and it isn´t the same case at all since the timing for Zaborg´s effect was correct and Torrential´s too since the Op is responding to the Summon of the Monarch, no to the effect...

...If the conclusion of the Threat is that, makes me believe that this scenario is legal.-

Player B has 2 f/d s/t on the field.
Player A summons "Blowback Dragon" and doesn´t activate it´s priority to activate the effect of this card so passes priority to player B.
Player B Activates "Torrential Tribute" and passes priority to Player A.
Player A decides to activate the effect of "Blowback Dragon" to target the remaining card on the field.

 

[John Danker]

Blowback Dragon's effect is a spell speed one and not chainable.
The scenarios you were given chain spell speed two effects, it's completely different.

 

[Digital Jedi]

I think, also, Maruno may have missed the first part of Lord Hades' scenario. The "pass/pass" by both players. That was the part I believe Hades was questioning.

 

[Tkwiget]

The bolded text is incorrect. The last thing to happen that is, for lack of a better way of saying it, definite and is true. What I mean is a monster is attacking still, and sakaretsu armor can be activated when a monster is attacking. It is the correct timing.

Compare it to the situation with a monarch. The monarch activates the ability immediately, and the opponent activates Torrential Tribute.

Only Zaborg, Thestalos, and Granmarg immediately activate. Mobius is an Optional Effect because of the wording "up to 2" it uses.

1. Monarch Ability (It doesn't matter, pick your favorite)
2. Torrential

Chain resolution > Torrential destroys all monsters on the field. > Monarch ability resolves unless the target was destroyed by torrential.

The Monarch's effect will resolve without effect if the target disappears before you get to the chain link that contains the Monarch effect.

I use this in comparison to show how the last thing to happen for sure was the summon in this case. Just because an ability was added to the chain, the window for activation is always the last thing to happen successfully......except for counter traps. They have to be activated in the chain immediately after what triggers them.

Counter Traps don't get triggered to activate. Counter Traps must be activated directly to what the Counter Trap can chain to. For example Magic Drain and Magic Jammer must be activated directly to the Spell Card you wish to negate. Similar to how you must activate Solemn Judgment in response to a summoning or activating Negate Attack directly in response to the attack.

 

[CPMillerWV]

That has been at the core of the discussion of this part of the thread. While a consecutive pass would ordinarily seem like a missed opportunity, it would seem we've been instructed by the higer-ups that this is not the case. You can pass during an attack declaration, and still have chance to respond to that same attack later, even if your opponent has passed back to you.

OK, I would like to ask WHEN and WHERE were we instructed by the "higher-ups" that they could still respond? I must have missed that.

I DO reimber that "we" were told that you could start a NEW chain after the orginial attack declaration. That was a NEW chain, not adding something after 2 "passes". Meaning that after the 2 CONSECUTIVE passes, you resolve the chain; after which, you COULD start a NEW chain. ALSO, that the NEW chain could not use effects that activate after the declaration of an attack. Such as with this senario (using yours above):

1. Player A attacks and passes its priority to player B
2. Player B do(es) nothing and passes priority back to Player A
3. Player A activates Book of Moon to the opponent´s monster Removed

   usess it´s priority and

   This is NOT using priority, just adding to the chain.
4. Player B can activate "Sakuretsu Armor" because the Timing of activation IS correct (the last thing to "happen" was the declaration of the attack, nothing else has "happened" until the chain resolves)

NOBODY passed twice so all is GOOD! :nod_yes

Resolve backwards:

1. Sak Armour destroys the ATK'ing monster.
2. Book of Moon flips Player B's monster face down
3. ATK stops since the ATK'ing monster is dead and gone!

OK
NOW, for a situation where BOTH players pass!

1. Player 1 declares and attk with DDWL
2. Player 2 chains Sak Armour
3. Player 1 Chains a set (set 1+ turns) 7-Tools
4. Player 2 passes (no counter traps avalible)
5. Player 1 passes

Resolve the Chain

1. 7-Tools Negates Sak Armour
2. Sak Armout is negated
3. Back to the attack

NOW, the chain is EMPTY!! :-:

Either player CAN activate something else; HOWEVER, the last thing to "happen" is the negation of Sak Armour!! Not the declaration of an attack.

1. Player 1 passes
2. Player 2 activates Book of Moon on DDWL (Player 2 CAN NOT activate Mirror Force, Negate Attack, nor Another Sak Armour because the last thing to "happen" was NOT a declaration of an attack. HOWEVER, Book of Moon does NOT have that limmitation!
3. Player 1 passes (nothing left to activate)
4. Player 2 passes (happy so far)

Resolve this chain

1. Book of Moon flips DDWL face down
2. The ATK stops due to #1

Now you are back to "square 1" and Player 1 can declare an ATK with something else or request to go to Main Phase 2.


This is how I remember how you can add/respond to a declaration of an ATK. If someone else knows of something elso, PLEASE tell me where. I missed it.

Hope this helps!!!

 

[Digital Jedi]

1. Player A attacks and passes its priority to player B
   
2. Player B do(es) nothing and passes priority back to Player A
   
3. Player A activates Book of Moon to the opponent´s monster Removed This is NOT using priority, just adding to the chain.
4. Player B can activate "Sakuretsu Armor" because the Timing of activation IS correct (the last thing to "happen" was the declaration of the attack, nothing else has "happened" until the chain resolves)

NOBODY passed twice so all is GOOD! :nod_yes

That would be two consecutive passes in your first scenario.

 

[CPMillerWV]

That would be two consecutive passes in your first scenario.

I do not belived that that is passing. Giving up priority after you do something is not a "pass". You HAVE done something and are just allowing your opponant to respond.

If you declaire an attack, and no responce is made by anybody, there is no chain! Therefore, no "double" passing. When you "pass priority" to your oppomant, you have not "passed" in a chain. How could you, there is NOT a chain!

SO, I should NOT have shown the declareation of an ATK as a chain link! It is a game mechanic. I am sorry for this. :sorry I did not take as much time as I prob should have to detail it out.

It was to show that you CAN activate Sak Armour after BoM in this case.

 

[Tkwiget]

I do not belived that that is passing. Giving up priority after you do something is not a "pass". You HAVE done something and are just allowing your opponant to respond.

If you declaire an attack, and no responce is made by anybody, there is no chain! Therefore, no "double" passing. When you "pass priority" to your oppomant, you have not "passed" in a chain. How could you, there is NOT a chain!

SO, I should NOT have shown the declareation of an ATK as a chain link! It is a game mechanic. I am sorry for this. :sorry I did not take as much time as I prob should have to detail it out.

It was to show that you CAN activate Sak Armour after BoM in this case.

Turn Player has a couple options to do in response to their own attack declaration.

1) Use their current retained priority to activate a Spell Speed 2 card.
2) Pass priority to opponent.

Two consecutive passes is a pass from Turn Player to the opponent and then back to the Turn Player with nothing being activated. It isn't two passes per player. This applies to chain blocks and response points.

At least that's how I remember it being explained to me. =/

 

[roadhouse007]

roadhouse007 is quoted to have said
(with corrections made in RED):
The bolded text is incorrect. The last thing to happen that is, for lack of a better way of saying it, definite and is true. What I mean is a monster is attacking still, and sakaretsu armor can be activated when a monster is attacking. It is the correct timing.

Compare it to the situation with a monarch. The monarch activates the ability immediately, and the opponent activates Torrential Tribute.

Only Zaborg, Thestalos, and Granmarg immediately activate. Mobius is an Optional Effect because of the wording "up to 2" it uses.

1. Monarch Ability (It doesn't matter, pick your favorite)
2. Torrential

Chain resolution > Torrential destroys all monsters on the field. > Monarch ability resolves without effect if the target was destroyed by torrential.

The Monarch's effect will resolve without effect if the target disappears before you get to the chain link that contains the Monarch effect.

I use this in comparison to show how the last thing to happen for sure was the summon in this case. Just because an ability was added to the chain, the window for activation is always the last thing to happen successfully......except for counter traps. They have to be activated in the chain immediately after what they would be countering.

Counter Traps don't get triggered to activate. Counter Traps must be activated directly to what the Counter Trap can chain to. For example Magic Drain and Magic Jammer must be activated directly to the Spell Card you wish to negate. Similar to how you must activate Solemn Judgment in response to a summoning or activating Negate Attack directly in response to the attack.

*****RESPONSES TO HIGHLIGHTED PARTS ARE COLOR CODED****

I feel this is incorrect. The ability of Mobius is a trigger ability, and is not optional. It will always be chain link 1 when he is tribute summoned. I will also state that he can resolve essentially without effect, if the controller of the effect choses to target zero cards. For most purposes, this would make the ability considered optional, but I am pointing this out to clarify that summoning Mobius does start a chain, even with 0 targets.

That is what I meant to say. I state my arguments poorly sometimes. Sorry for the misunderstanding. (changed the word "unless" to "without effect if" in my statement)

Also here, my argument was worded poorly. This was what I had intended to say. I just couldn't find the word to fit, so I used trigger. (Changed "triggers them" to "what they would be countering" in my statement)

 

[Tkwiget]

*****RESPONSES TO HIGHLIGHTED PARTS ARE COLOR CODED****

I feel this is incorrect. The ability of Mobius is a trigger ability, and is not optional. It will always be chain link 1 when he is tribute summoned. I will also state that he can resolve essentially without effect, if the controller of the effect choses to target zero cards. For most purposes, this would make the ability considered optional, but I am pointing this out to clarify that summoning Mobius does start a chain, even with 0 targets.

That is what I meant to say. I state my arguments poorly sometimes. Sorry for the misunderstanding. (changed the word "unless" to "without effect if" in my statement)

Also here, my argument was worded poorly. This was what I had intended to say. I just couldn't find the word to fit, so I used trigger. (Changed "triggers them" to "what they would be countering" in my statement)

If Mobius was a mandatory effect, then it would activate in scenarios where Mobius is brought out by Ultimate Offering in mid-chain. "up to 2" is common wording for some optional effects. The fact that official information on the Official Yu-Gi-Oh! site even explains that cards with wording that uses "when....you can" are considered to be optional effects. Mobius even has a ruling with Stumbling that states it's an optional effect.

[Re: Stumbling] The effect of "Stumbling" goes on a chain immediately after a monster is Summoned. As a mandatory Trigger Effect, "Stumbling" is always on the chain before optional Trigger Effects ("Mobius the Frost Monarch") or chained Spell & Trap Cards ("Trap Hole").

This ruling is consistant with official information about monsters that have "when....you can" wording in them. Other references to this are cards like Mystic Tomato, UFO Turtle, Giant Rat, Shinging Angel, and Mother Grizzly.

 

[slither]

Mobius is an optional trigger effect as shown in the rulings, BUT it will always trigger regardless (when succesfully tribute summoned of course), but there is a choice (the optional part), of selecting to actually use his effect or not.

 

[roadhouse007]

Mobius is an optional trigger effect as shown in the rulings, BUT it will always trigger regardless (when succesfully tribute summoned of course), but there is a choice (the optional part), of selecting to actually use his effect or not.

I agree with this statement, and is what I was trying to point out. It would go on the chain whether the controlling player decided to use the effect or not. It still creates a chain link.

 

[Maruno]

I think, also, Maruno may have missed the first part of Lord Hades' scenario. The "pass/pass" by both players. That was the part I believe Hades was questioning.

Where are you looking? I've not been in this discussion yet.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Where are you looking? I've not been in this discussion yet.

Maruno, Roadhouse. You know all you Yu-Gi-Oh! players look alike.

 

[soulwarrior]

I want to throw in my 2 cents.
First of all, I will make clear that this could be my very last post in this topic. I've seen enough other guys explaining how it really works and all got flamed. I have enough respect on German message boards that I won't get flamed for telling others what I think and I really hope that this will be the first American board where people make up their mind before they flame others that just try to help.

So let's start over with the Saku example.

You attack. You retain Priority to activate an effect. You pass.
Your opponent passes as well.

You now activate Book on a defending monster and your opponent won't be able to chain Saku.
Not possible? Why? Because both players passed in succession? So what...

___

Let's look at it from another perspective.

I enter my Main Phase. I summon a monster. Game State changes to 'A Monster was summoned'.
I retain Prio (as we all should now) and now in this (and in ONLY THIS) chain I could activate an effect that can only be activated as a response to the summon.
I don't want to use it, so I pass.
My opponent's not all too scared, so he passes as well and doesn't activate TT or sth. else as a response to the summon.

Both players passed in succession. Will game advance to Battle Phase? Not at all...

That will only happen if NOW, after the Game State changed to 'Neutral', both players passed again in succession!

___

To make it clear, another example:

I summon Don Zaloog. I retain and pass Prio. My opponent passes as well.
Now for whatever reason I activate Enemy Controller in the Main Phase on an opponents Scapegoat. My opponent would now NOT be able to activate TT, because the last thing to happen wasn't that a monster was summoned to the field, the last thing to happen was that both players passed in succession and therefore the Game State changed to 'neutral'.

Everyone who's telling you something different is wrong (sorry, that sounds so harsh).

___

So after we have now understood that 'both players pass in succession' does NOT always mean we advance to the next Step or Phase, why is it so impossible to imagine that you CAN actually play Book of Moon after both players passed once and 'steal' your opponent the chance to chain Saku to it?

The same principle that counts for the Main Phase goes for the Battle Step!


I personally think this is very logical.
I further want to add that it's not just an idea of Kevin Tewart, I guess he made up his mind and came to the same conclusion. He's a cool guy in Real Life and his humor doesn't always translate if he posts something in message boards.

No reason for blaming him because Konami doesn't allow him to post a Priority article or stuff like that, this man has a pretty complicated job...

// end of my 2 cents
Start flaming me. ^^

soul

 

[CPMillerWV]

I want to throw in my 2 cents.

OUCH! Those pennies from that far HURT! :crying

// end of my 2 cents
Start flaming me. ^^

FLAME; FLAME;

rcpoursu

Darn, you are too fast! Jk

Does my explination above jive with what you believe? NOTE, with edit as I said that the declaration should be a Game Mechanic.

Thanks!

 

[John Danker]

To make it clear, another example:

I summon Don Zaloog. I retain and pass Prio. My opponent passes as well.
Now for whatever reason I activate Enemy Controller in the Main Phase on an opponents Scapegoat. My opponent would now NOT be able to activate TT, because the last thing to happen wasn't that a monster was summoned to the field, the last thing to happen was that both players passed in succession and therefore the Game State changed to 'neutral'.

Everyone who's telling you something different is wrong (sorry, that sounds so harsh).

I think it important to note that the correctness of this scenario has neither been confirmed or denied by UDE or Konami...at least that I'm aware of. Passes of priority have not been confirmed to be considered an "event" (or "thing to happpen as it was worded) such as is the summon of a monster or the change of a step / phase.

Am I disagreeing with what was stated...quite honestly, I have no certainty either way, just what has not been said / written by UDE or Konami. This is one of those issues that is LONG overdue to be addressed and put correct publicly.

* EDIT *

I should also add that if anyone has seen official documentation on this subject I'd very much appreciate you giving me the link!

 

[soulwarrior]

I think it important to note that the correctness of this scenario has neither been confirmed or denied by UDE or Konami...at least that I'm aware of. Passes of priority have not been confirmed to be considered an "event" (or "thing to happpen as it was worded) such as is the summon of a monster or the change of a step / phase.

It hasn't been officially confirmed, yes.
But I had some talks with Kevin at the Euros and he proved what I have stated here.

Well, the problem is that there are always judges that claim they have heard other things at other events, so maybe it is that certain judges have problems with their ears or they didn't really listen and imagined things rather than listening closely.

Am I disagreeing with what was stated...quite honestly, I have no certainty either way, just what has not been said / written by UDE or Konami. This is one of those issues that is LONG overdue to be addressed and put correct publicly.

I agree. ^^

I should also add that if anyone has seen official documentation on this subject I'd very much appreciate you giving me the link!

Most probably no one can provide such a link because as I said Kevin's not allowed to explain how it works, since Konami claims that Priority doesn't matter at all, so there's no need for such an article according to Konami.

And @ CPMillerWV:

You're actually passing priority if you don't want to activate an effect after you declared an attach. Because it's "your turn" to do something and that's just what Priority means. So you do pass.

So you give your opponent then the chance to respond to the attack (as you said, it's not a chain link, so you can't chain to the attack).

In the end, what matters the most is that you would rule the scenario right and that's what you would have accomplished. So that's some kind of a great success!

soul