B.E.S Crystal Core / Mirage Knight

J

John Danker

Administrator
These two monster have effect text that state..." When this card battles a monster...."

The question arrises if it's a direct attack does B.E.S. Core remove a counter?

Does Mirage Knight increase it's attack if it attacks directly?

I'm not finding anything in the rulings or judge's list regarding the question.

It's difficult tellng from the rulings and text given..

----------------------
B.E.S. Crystal Core

Text:
Put 3 counters on this card when you Normal Summon it. This card is not destroyed as a result of battle. If this card battles a monster, remove 1 counter from this card at the end of the Damage Step. If this card battles without a counter, destroy this card at the end of the Damage Step. Once per turn, during your Main Phase, you can change 1 face-up Attack Position monster on your opponent's side of the field to face-up Defense Position.


Rulings:

If you target the opponent's monster with the effect of "B.E.S. Crystal Core", and an effect is chained that causes it to no longer be on your opponent's side of the field (such as "Remove Brainwashing" or "Enemy Controller"), the effect of "B.E.S. Crystal Core" is not applied.

----------------------

Mirage Knight

Text:

Text
This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special Summoned except by the effect of "Dark Flare Knight". When this card battles another monster, during damage calculation increase the ATK of this card by the original ATK of the opponent's monster. During the End Phase after this card was involved in battle, remove this card from play.
 
Sort by date Sort by votes
'Scuse me?

Without looking at any rulings, I'd say that B.E.S. Crystal Core (et al.) doesn't remove a counter when attacking directly, and Mirage Knight doesn't gain ATK when attacking directly.

Why? Because they both depend on attacking a monster. A player is not a monster (not even some 14-year-old punk).

However, I would say that B.E.S. Crystal Core (et al.) does get destroyed by its effect when it has no counters, and Mirage Knight does remove itself from play, after they attack directly, because that's still considered a battle.

There probably aren't any rulings for these scenarios because they're fairly obvious (i.e. the card says so, and we've not been told to not trust the card).
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
To tell you the truth I never considered the possibility that it could do one thing when it battles a monster and another when it attacks directly....however, I don't think it's as obvious as you make it sound and I'm not convinced that's the way it works....not saying it couldn't...but I'm not convinced.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Not the best example but when D.D. Warrior attacks directly it wont remove itself from play. Only when it battles a monster but then it's mandatory.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Its quite simple. Battle and battle with a monster is completely different.

BES has a counter and attacks directly. Battle takes place but not with a monster so no counter removed there.

BES has no counter and attacks directly. Battle takes place and so with no counter he dies.

Mirage attacks directly. No opposing monster but battle is still conducted just with your opps life points instead of a monster. he still gets removed.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I had thought I read somewhere that BES was ruled to lose a counter, even when attacking directly. Unfortunately, I cannot remember where or when and if you don't know, John, then I am really lost.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I searched for such a thread on the judge's list and found nothing. I'll try a search with a few other key words to see if something shows up....but I searched using the keyword "Crystal' and found nothing, I thought that would be specific enough.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
John Danker said:
I searched for such a thread on the judge's list and found nothing. I'll try a search with a few other key words to see if something shows up....but I searched using the keyword "Crystal' and found nothing, I thought that would be specific enough.
Click to expand...
If it was a while ago, try looking for "Big Core" instead.

skey23 said:
I would agree that neither monster would be affected when they attack directly, based off their current text.
Click to expand...
Except Mirage Knight being removed from play, and B.E.S. Crystal Core (et al.) being destroyed, of course :eek:ldwink
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Hmmm...I checked the Japanese ruling, and even though there are no rulings on this, the Japanese card text doesn't mention monsters. It just says "battles".

Crazy theory: maybe "battles" means "battles with a monster", and they just added in the "with a monster" part to make it clearer?
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Entropy said:
Hmmm...I checked the Japanese ruling, and even though there are no rulings on this, the Japanese card text doesn't mention monsters. It just says "battles".

Crazy theory: maybe "battles" means "battles with a monster", and they just added in the "with a monster" part to make it clearer?
Click to expand...
In which case, adding in the "with a monster" text makes it an incorrect translation. If the card originally meant battles in general (versus and direct), then sticking in the "with a monster" thing simply makes it wrong.

Or, for some reason they didn't add in the "with a monster" phrase twice, even though it should appear twice (again making it a mistranslation).

I have no idea what it should be.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Battling with a monster has been defined where two monsters enter the Damage Step and conduct Damage Calculations of some kind. Evidence of this would be when we discussed Drillroid v.s. Legendary Jujitsu Master. LJM doesn't activate when Drillroid attacks it. This is because they never reached Damage Calculations because of Drillroid's effect.

B.E.S. Crystal Core attacks a monster and enters Damage Calculations. A counter will be removed because B.E.S. Crystal Core successfully conducted battle with another monster.

B.E.S. Crystal Core attacks a face down Adhesive Explosive. Damage Calculations are skipped and Adhesive Explosive is equipped to B.E.S. Crystal Core. Battle with another monster was never successfully conducted and a counter will not be removed.

B.E.S. Crystal Core attacking directly will not remove a counter since he didn't conduct battle with a monster successfully. However, if B.E.S. Crystal Core is attacking directly without a counter, it shouldn't be destroyed because it wasn't involved in a battle.

Apply same concept to Mirage Knight in both attacking a monster and attacking directly.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Tkwiget said:
Battling with a monster has been defined where two monsters enter the Damage Step and conduct Damage Calculations of some kind. Evidence of this would be when we discussed Drillroid v.s. Legendary Jujitsu Master. LJM doesn't activate when Drillroid attacks it. This is because they never reached Damage Calculations because of Drillroid's effect.

B.E.S. Crystal Core attacks a monster and enters Damage Calculations. A counter will be removed because B.E.S. Crystal Core successfully conducted battle with another monster.

B.E.S. Crystal Core attacks a face down Adhesive Explosive. Damage Calculations are skipped and Adhesive Explosive is equipped to B.E.S. Crystal Core. Battle with another monster was never successfully conducted and a counter will not be removed.

B.E.S. Crystal Core attacking directly will not remove a counter since he didn't conduct battle with a monster successfully. However, if B.E.S. Crystal Core is attacking directly without a counter, it shouldn't be destroyed because it wasn't involved in a battle.

Apply same concept to Mirage Knight in both attacking a monster and attacking directly.
Click to expand...

You're stating this as theory I assume not fact? I tend to agree with you but I'm not completely convinced without offical word on this one. As mentioned the text could have easily been poorly translated. At this point I'd rule it as described but in my mind the jury is still out.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top