behemoth king of all animals and wandering mummy

E

exiledforcefreak

RIP Jacob KT 2/16/06
Quote:
UDE FAQ is quoted to have said:
If you Tribute Set "Behemoth the King of All Animals" with 1 Tribute, its ATK will only be 2000 points when flipped face-up. However, once it is face-up, if it is flipped face-down again, the effect is reset and its ATK becomes 2700 points.

ok, so lets say I tribute set Behemoth King of all Animals by tributing 1 monster. Next turn I tribute set ANOTHER behemoth king of all animals tributing two monsters (leaving the original behemoth king of all animals on the field). Now i use the effect of wandering mummy...

where do I go from here?
 
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Nowhere, each Behemoth will be exactly the same (the first one will be 2000, the second one normal), you MUST tell your opponent which Behemoth is which.

EDIT: well not exactly MUST, but in any event that the opponent attacks or something whatever it might be you must be honest.
 
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But because of the intended effect when using wandering mummy, at that point would it be advisable/allowable to place a type of marker, such as a small piece of paper, in the sleve to denote which is which, rather than telling them which one is which right away?

EDIT: Your edit came in while I was posting......and I just made the marking suggestion becuase, I mean come on, how many people are honest in this game unless playing a friend for fun?
 
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The monsters don't change, they are the same monsters, if the Nightmare Wheel is not enough evidence refer to Jowgen, which indicates that any special summoned monster will be remembered regardless to what happens to the monsters while on the field. The monsters won't vary, nor will change.
 
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With the "Nightmare Wheel" ruling, the player controlling "Nightmare Wheel" has a continuously targeting effect. As such, they MUST know which face-down monster is being targeted by "Nightmare Wheel".

In this situation, the opponent doesn't have any effects in play that require them to know which monster is which. It is up to the controller of both "Behemoths" to be honest about which one is which.
 
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How hard would it be to slip a piece of paper in the clear side of the sleeve of one of the face-downs? If one of these face-downs needs to be remembered, I would insist on it. That way it can't be flipped face-up without knowing that it was one of the original, and can't be determined anyway else..
 
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Its easy enough to forget yourself which one is which if they dont have something different about them to make identifying them easier.

There's no guarantee that one will be a holo or 1st Edition, as well as one being slightly scratched, etc... I would not agree with the piece of paper for the simple fact that it may cause it to be easier to identify if both are face-down (paper may make card unreasonably raise off the table). I would say that as long as both cards are sleeved (and maybe they have the little Ultra Pro Dot on the sleeve), just flip the card that is 2000 upside down in the Card Sleeve, to where the bottom of the card is facing the sleeve opening, and the 2700 Monster is in the sleeve with the Top of the card facing the opening.

Problem solved. Then, when the upside down one is removed from the field, it will be placed back in the Sleeve to orient it with the rest of the Deck.
 
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If it was me, I wouldn't specify which was which.

In practice, it makes no difference when they are face-down. They can have any and all ATK values when face-down, because it has no effect on the external reality of the game. Schrodinger's Cat. Only when something happens that would flip them face-up must they be determined to have a specific ATK.

So I tribute set one Behemoth at 2000 ATK and another at 2700 ATK. Then I shuffle with Wandering Mummy. I don't say which one has what ATK, I just say that there are two face-down Behemoths and one has 2700 ATK and one has 2000 ATK.

Then when it comes time to flip one of them face-up, and we need to determine WHICH one is being flipped face-up, we can do so quite easily.

If I'm the one who's flipping one of them face-up, I will simply flip whichever I want, and call it as having the ATK which I intend for it to have.

If the opponent is flipping one up, he won't know which, so we'll have to give him a fifty-fifty chance. What will happen is he will select one of the Behemoths and declare whether he is intending to select the 2000 ATK or the 2700 ATK. Then he calls Heads or Tails and I flip a coin. If he called right, he selected the correct Behemoth. If he called wrong, he selected the other Behemoth.

In practice, it has exactly the same effect as if one of the Behemoths were turned upside-down in the sleeve, but without the risk that a curvature in the card might make it obvious. It has the same effect as if I were simply being HONEST about which Behemoth was which, but without the risk that I might be lying.
 
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Jason_C said:
If it was me, I wouldn't specify which was which.

In practice, it makes no difference when they are face-down. They can have any and all ATK values when face-down, because it has no effect on the external reality of the game. Schrodinger's Cat. Only when something happens that would flip them face-up must they be determined to have a specific ATK.

So I tribute set one Behemoth at 2000 ATK and another at 2700 ATK. Then I shuffle with Wandering Mummy. I don't say which one has what ATK, I just say that there are two face-down Behemoths and one has 2700 ATK and one has 2000 ATK.

Then when it comes time to flip one of them face-up, and we need to determine WHICH one is being flipped face-up, we can do so quite easily.

If I'm the one who's flipping one of them face-up, I will simply flip whichever I want, and call it as having the ATK which I intend for it to have.

If the opponent is flipping one up, he won't know which, so we'll have to give him a fifty-fifty chance. What will happen is he will select one of the Behemoths and declare whether he is intending to select the 2000 ATK or the 2700 ATK. Then he calls Heads or Tails and I flip a coin. If he called right, he selected the correct Behemoth. If he called wrong, he selected the other Behemoth.

In practice, it has exactly the same effect as if one of the Behemoths were turned upside-down in the sleeve, but without the risk that a curvature in the card might make it obvious. It has the same effect as if I were simply being HONEST about which Behemoth was which, but without the risk that I might be lying.
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If the card is curved, nothing is going to change it from not being, other than maybe a hair dryer.

As far as making your opponent guess which one is which before he/you flips it, that is placing a unreasonable expectation on your opponent.

He doesnt need to divulge that he intended to attack either of them since he really isnt supposed to know what he is attacking face-down.

It would be no different than if you had your opponents Twin-Headed Behemoth that was already destroyed once, and you had one as well that have the same color sleeve and wear, both flipped face-down.
 
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Flipping the card in the sleeve is also a good suggestion. Not a lot you can do about a slightly warped card other then call over a judge, and that's not what we're trying to resolve here. You have to do something about the card in order to make certain the no shenanigans are afoot.

Aside from all that, I've never had a Wandering Mummy. Though she did tell me Papa Was a Rolling Stone. :D
 
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He doesnt need to divulge that he intended to attack either of them since he really isnt supposed to know what he is attacking face-down.
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True, you could just say "Okay, you pick which one you're attacking, and flip a coin. Heads is you attacked the 2700 one; Tails is you attacked the 2000 one". The point I was trying to make is you don't need to 'remember' which one was which; you need only to properly determine afterwards.
 
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I used to make a note on a folded piece of paper that the full-strength Fusilier was in zone 1 and the set without tribute Fusilier was in zone 3 after Wandering Mummy's effect. The slip of paper also sounds like a good idea. The problem I see with randomizing with a die roll is that the monsters are known to the controller as to which is which, so there doesn't seem to be justification to make it a "chance" issue, just a "tracking" to prevent misidentification issue.
 
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anthonyj said:
I used to make a note on a folded piece of paper that the full-strength Fusilier was in zone 1 and the set without tribute Fusilier was in zone 3 after Wandering Mummy's effect. The slip of paper also sounds like a good idea. The problem I see with randomizing with a die roll is that the monsters are known to the controller as to which is which, so there doesn't seem to be justification to make it a "chance" issue, just a "tracking" to prevent misidentification issue.
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Slips of paper can easily be forgotten and exploited by a player just trying to win when they can't do it the right way. I'd much rather take a chance that my card is upside down in the sleeve, than trying to explain why I have a slip of paper in my sleeve, if I forget to take it out.
 
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Jason_C said:
True, you could just say "Okay, you pick which one you're attacking, and flip a coin. Heads is you attacked the 2700 one; Tails is you attacked the 2000 one". The point I was trying to make is you don't need to 'remember' which one was which; you need only to properly determine afterwards.
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Probably not really important right now, but the game is evolving fairly quickly, remember that in the next booster set we will deal with field columns, rows and positions now, this will make a huge impact from now on, and because of this remembering or knowing face-down cards will be necessary.
 
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