BLS & Skill Drain

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Ok, let me understand the situation you're asking.

First you summon and use BLS's removal effect. That part activates and resolves completely. Then you activate Skill Drain and that completely resolves. Now you're asking if you can attack with BLS?
 
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How can you activate the removal effect of Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning if Skill Drain is already face-up on the field? Plus, Skill Drain says to negate all effects, so if it was chained to the effect then the effect would be negated, right?

But if this ruling is the case, then Toon Monsters cannot attack in the same turn they are Summoned, even if Skill Drain is on the field (both have effects saying they can't attack if something happens (Summoned or effect used), and Skill Drain apparently doesn't get rid of this "can't attack" condition). This goes against my theory, so I guess I'll have to abandon it.

Could we now be any closer to answering the question of Toons vs Skill Drain in the Summoning turn, considering this ruling?
 
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But if this ruling is the case, then Toon Monsters cannot attack in the same turn they are Summoned, even if Skill Drain is on the field (both have effects saying they can't attack if something happens (Summoned or effect used), and Skill Drain apparently doesn't get rid of this "can't attack" condition). This goes against my theory, so I guess I'll have to abandon it.

Could we now be any closer to answering the question of Toons vs Skill Drain in the Summoning turn, considering this ruling?[/QUOTE]

Toon Monsters' effects are negated while "Skill Drain" is active and the Toon Monster is on the field, so they can attack the same turn they are Summoned, you do not have to pay 500 Life Points to attack with them, and they are not destroyed if "Toon World" is destroyed, but they cannot attack your opponent directly.

This also is in the card registry. Skill Drain does not stop you from activating an effect. An example of this is you can still paying the cards to boost Bazoo but the boost does not happen, or pay the card for tribe but the effect does not happen.
 
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That I am posting does not mean that I agree or disagree with the answer. I would rather NOT take the effort to look it up at the moment.
Maruno said:
But if this ruling is the case, then Toon Monsters cannot attack in the same turn they are Summoned, even if Skill Drain is on the field (both have effects saying they can't attack if something happens (Summoned or effect used), and Skill Drain apparently doesn't get rid of this "can't attack" condition). This goes against my theory, so I guess I'll have to abandon it.
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Not necessarily. One is part of the effect, while the other is an effect in itself, like Dark Elf.
 
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Maruno said:
How can you activate the removal effect of Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning if Skill Drain is already face-up on the field? Plus, Skill Drain says to negate all effects, so if it was chained to the effect then the effect would be negated, right?

But if this ruling is the case, then Toon Monsters cannot attack in the same turn they are Summoned, even if Skill Drain is on the field (both have effects saying they can't attack if something happens (Summoned or effect used), and Skill Drain apparently doesn't get rid of this "can't attack" condition). This goes against my theory, so I guess I'll have to abandon it.

Could we now be any closer to answering the question of Toons vs Skill Drain in the Summoning turn, considering this ruling?
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These are very different things. Skill Drain only prevents an effect of a face-up monster from resolving and negates continuous effects, you can activate the effect without any problem from Skill Drain. With an active Skill Drain you can activate BLS's first effect and then chain with Book of Moon and it will resolve just fine because when BLS's effect resolves he will no longer be face-up on the field. You can do the same thing with Interdimensional Matter Transporter. What Skill Drain does not do is negate conditions that have been placed on a monster (like the condition placed on BLS as a cost for activating his first effect.) So when BLS activates his 1st effect the "cost" for activation is the condition that he may not attack that round, activating Skill Drain will not remove this condition.

The restriction that the toon monsters have that prevents them from attacking in the round they are summoned is not a condition. It is a continuous effect restriction, thus when Skill Drain is active that effect is negated and the toon monster may attack in the round it is summoned, just like Armor Exe.

What is still in question for Toons vs. Skill Drain is whether the toon can attack in the round it is summoned if Skill Drain was active and then left the field. Would the Toon monster still be able to attack because Skill Drain had given it that ability or would the continuous effect kick back in and prevent the attack?
 
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I guess it follows what happens if it were a Jinzo, as soon as Skill Drain is gone, the effect of Jinzo is re-insntalled again, hence I believe it would be true for the Toons because they are have a continous effect restriction, pretty much a continuos monster effect type of limitation with Skill Drain.

Of course this is just an opinion, and hope it works to settle the answer some day...
 
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DarkPaladin2k1 said:
I guess it follows what happens if it were a Jinzo, as soon as Skill Drain is gone, the effect of Jinzo is re-insntalled again, hence I believe it would be true for the Toons because they are have a continous effect restriction, pretty much a continuos monster effect type of limitation with Skill Drain.
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There is a big difference between this and Jinzo. Jinzo's effect has a start but no stop button. TGE's stop button is pressed at the end of the turn it is special summoned. So TGE has the possibility of ending, while Jinzo does not.
 
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Tkwiget said:
Ok, let me understand the situation you're asking.

First you summon and use BLS's removal effect. That part activates and resolves completely. Then you activate Skill Drain and that completely resolves. Now you're asking if you can attack with BLS?
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If you people actually would read that is the actual situation being asked here. (Not saying any names because I know who created the confusion.)

If Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning activates the removal effect and it resolves complete. Then Skill Drain is activated after the monster effect is resolved completely it still doesn't negate the condition that Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning made to itself. That condition is that he can't attack that turn since his effect for removing a monster was used.

IMO, I don't really like how one person created so much confusion. The situation is common sense really. Since Skill Drain isn't negating a condition like BLS made for the monster, then it won't be negated. Toon Monsters not being able to attack the turn they're summoned is PART of the effect. That isn't a condition, that's part of the effect. To answer you Antony, yes the Toon monsters can because like you said yourself. Skill Drain negates Monster Effects resolving. The effect of them not being able to attack the turn they're summoned is a Trigger effect IMO. After all, they get summoned and bam, that part of the effect activates. Since Skill Drain is on the field it will negate the effect from resolving and thus you can attack the turn you summoned that monster.
 
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Tkwiget said:
Toon Monsters not being able to attack the turn they're summoned is PART of the effect. That isn't a condition, that's part of the effect. To answer you Antony, yes the Toon monsters can because like you said yourself. Skill Drain negates Monster Effects resolving. The effect of them not being able to attack the turn they're summoned is a Trigger effect IMO. After all, they get summoned and bam, that part of the effect activates. Since Skill Drain is on the field it will negate the effect from resolving and thus you can attack the turn you summoned that monster.
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Thanks. You might want to consider 2 things 1) it isn't a trigger effect as it doesn't actually "activate", it is a continuous effect. and 2) since Skill Drain doesn't have to be on the field before the Toon is summoned it doesn't have anything to do with preventing the effect from resolving. Any further discussion on this topic should be directed here: http://www.cogonline.net/threads.11358
 
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Sorry for sparking up this debate again in a (mostly) unrelated thread. I think I've just realised how complicated this game is. What with other things happening the finer details of this debate have escaped my mind. Nice to see everyone so eager to jump in and trade specifics.

So if Skill Drain doesn't remove Black Luster Soldier's "no attack" condition, then it also doesn't remove the "was Summoned this turn" condition on Toon monsters (I'm still assuming this is how this thing works. It must do, otherwise how does the effect know to only be active this one turn?). Therefore when Skill Drain leaves the field, the "was Summoned this turn" condition is still on the Toon monsters. Their continuous effects which search for this condition and then apply themselves accordingly automatically (making them continuous, in that they constantly check for this condition) apply themselves again, meaning Toon monsters cannot attack in the turn they are Summoned, even if Skill Drain leaves the field.

That's my new standpoint, anyway.
 
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See why this is such a fun quandery? For the record there is not an "Official" answer yet on what would happen. That is why it is on the Unsolved Mysteries post. We can only theorize at this point whether the can't attack would turn back on or not. Perhaps if every LV1 or higher judge were to submit the question to the judges list everyday for a full week we'd get Kevin's attention. Short of that it becomes just another tough question, and we have a history of the tough questions being placed in a special drawer from which there is typically no return.
 
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Maruno said:
Sorry for sparking up this debate again in a (mostly) unrelated thread. I think I've just realised how complicated this game is. What with other things happening the finer details of this debate have escaped my mind. Nice to see everyone so eager to jump in and trade specifics.

So if Skill Drain doesn't remove Black Luster Soldier's "no attack" condition, then it also doesn't remove the "was Summoned this turn" condition on Toon monsters (I'm still assuming this is how this thing works. It must do, otherwise how does the effect know to only be active this one turn?). Therefore when Skill Drain leaves the field, the "was Summoned this turn" condition is still on the Toon monsters. Their continuous effects which search for this condition and then apply themselves accordingly automatically (making them continuous, in that they constantly check for this condition) apply themselves again, meaning Toon monsters cannot attack in the turn they are Summoned, even if Skill Drain leaves the field.

That's my new standpoint, anyway.
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Skill Drain doesn't reset the effect to activate again. Since the Toon Monster's portion of the effect based on the summoning action has been negated it will not reset nor reactivate. There for the Toon Monster still can attack the turn it is summoned because of that reason.
 
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