Call of the Haunted/Premature Burial

[LordLight2]

I was playing an opponent at a Regionals back in October and I flipped Call. He immediately told me to stop and not look at my cards until the judge came over. He said that since I didn't declare which monster I was getting, it should be null and void. (Apparently the same thing happened to him in an earlier duel.) Well the judge ruled that I needed to declare which monster I wanted before I played it. Fortunately I only had 1 monster and knew what it was, so it wasn't a problem. Now, at the Regionals I went to this past weekend, it was ruled that I could look through my graveyard after it was played. I told him about the last Regionals and he said that "Yes, they keep going back and forth on it".

Now, has any one else had this problem? And what would be the correct view? I know the monster DOES have to be declared so the opponent can respond with an action of their own if they want. But does it have to be declared BEFORE the card is played? I know, the rules state that the graveyard is open to both players EXCEPT in certain situations, i.e. Question, so this makes the rulings a little confusing.

Thoughts?

 

[densetsu_x]

That's a case of severe nitpicking. However, if you want to play it safe, just look through your graveyard before playing Call of the Haunted / Premature Burial and that way you can say you're targeting so-and-so. As long as you announce what you're targeting with the card before placing it on the field and give your opponent a chance to respond, it really shouldn't be an issue.

 

[John Danker]

Indeed it is severe nitpicking. To my knowledge, there isn't anything in the FAQ or posts on the judge's list to suggest that a player cannot look through their deck after activating COTH / Premature Burial. The graveyard is public knowledge and may be looked through at any time.

If someone has something to disprove this I'd be very interested in seeing it.

 

[LordLight2]

Indeed it is severe nitpicking. To my knowledge, there isn't anything in the FAQ or posts on the judge's list to suggest that a player cannot look through their deck after activating COTH / Premature Burial. The graveyard is public knowledge and may be looked through at any time.

If someone has something to disprove this I'd be very interested in seeing it.

I thought the graveyard was public knowledge as well. That's what confused me. Especially after what both judges said. Yes, the first one could have been wrong, it happens, and we all make bad calls from time to time. But then to have the second judge to say that "They keep going back and forth on it"? Needless to say, I'm sure you can understand my confusion.

 

[Digital Jedi]

It's because there's no real world pinpoint for when a card is considered activated. This is a game of intellectual concepts. Cards don't really activate, and they don't really resolve any more then monsters really get destroyed. These are intellectual concepts that are applied to the game to make the game fluid and structured.

If you flip your card over and it's now face up on the field, is it activated? Activating? Is it resolving? Whats the difference? The difference is the order in which you do things. They may very well make a rule that says you have to target the monster before you ever flip the card, but that is unlikely. As it stands now, when you flip Call of the Haunted, your opponent still has to wait until you pass before he can claim you did anything wrong. If you activate the card and then pass to me without selecting the monster, then I could possibly call you on something. But even then, all I really have to do is say "hey, you forgot to select your monster", because really, at this point isn't the card still considered activated? I mean, if the card isn't considered, for all intents and purposes, "activating" when your opponent passes to you, then I couldn't chain Seven Tools of the Bandit to it, because it can only be chained directly to card activation. And how would I know I wanted to pay 1000 to negate your cards unless I knew what it was? Yeah, that's some rules lawyering if I ever saw it.

 

[HorusMaster]

And how would I know I wanted to pay 1000 to negate your cards unless I knew what it was? Yeah, that's some rules lawyering if I ever saw it.

I know if I were going to pay a 1000 lifepoints to negate Call of the Haunted, I would want to know what card the player intended to bring back. Is it worth the cost? Depends on the card and the player's situation. But nit-picking about not declaring the card to be returned BEFORE you activate CotH? Almost un-sportsmanlike to me...

 

[Kenjiblade]

This does sound slightly inane.

Yes, they keep going back and forth on it.

Who is this "they" in this quote? Certainly not UDE or Konami, since they would never be this specific or strict regarding what is considered the point of activation of a card. As far as I'm concerned, flipping "Call of the Haunted" face-up and then declaring the monster you wish to Special Summon is every bit as correct as declaring the monster prior to actually flipping CotH face-up.

Then again, who am I to judge; I've not actually judged in a big tournament in some time now...

 

[english chef]

Indeed it is severe nitpicking. To my knowledge, there isn't anything in the FAQ or posts on the judge's list to suggest that a player cannot look through their deck after activating COTH / Premature Burial. The graveyard is public knowledge and may be looked through at any time.

If someone has something to disprove this I'd be very interested in seeing it.

I really hate to nitpick but I thought that you couldnt look through the deck unless you had a legitimate reason to do so?

In all seriousness on the subject at hand however, I can see no reason that one should not look through the graveyard for a card to target with CotH/PB, unless that would end with an improper activation if no target were actually found.

Personally, I was of the opinion that one could not target with a card until that card was actually played, in most cases the targetting occurred at the activation.

in absurdum reducto: So if I could target before activating, then I could target spirit reaper with a ring of destruction before actually activating ring of destruction. If so... (long breath) will spirit reaper destroy itself before I actually have to play RoD?

 

[Chillout1984]

I really hate to nitpick but I thought that you couldnt look through the deck unless you had a legitimate reason to do so?

In all seriousness on the subject at hand however, I can see no reason that one should not look through the graveyard for a card to target with CotH/PB, unless that would end with an improper activation if no target were actually found.

Personally, I was of the opinion that one could not target with a card until that card was actually played, in most cases the targetting occurred at the activation.

in absurdum reducto: So if I could target before activating, then I could target spirit reaper with a ring of destruction before actually activating ring of destruction. If so... (long breath) will spirit reaper destroy itself before I actually have to play RoD?

Of course it wouldn't be destroyed. It is destroyed after the resolution of the card that targets him (IF he still is face up on the field, that is), not after/before the activation .

 

[Fury]

I dont know if you people know this, but on UDE's site there is an "Interactive Demo". That's a nice tutorial, and it shows how cards are supposed to be played, it shows how things happen after each other. You can also see COTH there. Might be interesting to check it out.

 

[Dillie-O]

Even if you "failed" to declare the name of the target upon activation of Call of the Haunted, the worst that can happen really is that you would get a warning for bad procedure and continue as normal.

The "serious" issue I think they're trying to get at this. Let's say you have Dark Ruler Ha Des and Slate Warrior in your graveyard. You activate Call of the Haunted.

Your opponent is now thinking. "Hmmm, which one are they going to pull? If they pull Dark Ruler, my set Magician of Faith is going to be toast. If they pull Slate Warrior, that's okay, I'll save my Disappear for when I need it more."

If you don't declare the name of the monster at activation and you allow the effect to resolve, the opponent has now lost the opportunity to remove that valuable Dark Ruler and disrupt the strategy because Disappear can't be chained.

When Call of the Haunted was run in higher numbers, this did become an issue at times because players wanted to chain another trap before the opponent's Jinzo hit the field again. They would argue that they never got the chance to repsond and the summoner of Jinzo would nitpick and say they couldn't chain because the effect is now resolving.

The other argument by duelists was that the second they started looking through the graveyard, the opponent knew that either Call of the Haunted or Premature Burial was going to be played, so the opponent would immediately activate a trap card to disrupt this plan as well. We know that can't happen anymore because the Turn Player is the one that retains the priority to start new events during their turn.

All of that rambling comes down to this, and your friends should do this too. When Call of the Haunted is activated, if the owner of the card immediately doesn't declare which card they are targeting, the opponent should ask "which card?" If the owner doesn't know, they should then pick up the deck and search, declare the name, and then allow the opponent to chain to the activation accordingly. If for some reason no card is found, then the owner must return the card face down, since the activation would be illegal, and now they've shot themselves in the foot and revealed a set card to their opponent.

That's my 10 bits 8^D Sorry for the ramble, its nice to see some good conversation again... 8^D

 

[Fury]

Again, you search the grave not the deck.

Dark Ruler Ha Des cant be Special Summoned form the graveyard.

I think the origianal point was, to declare the target before flipping Call of the Haunted face-up or only after. I think it's after.
You declare the activation of the card by flipping it face-up, then declare the target. In this case you could show the targeted monster to the opp, maybe he doesnt track all cards in your graveyard, and by showing it to him, he can verify that said card is truly in the grave.
(It can happen after using Pot of Avarice for example that the user of Call names a monster that he already shuffled back but forgot.)

 

[EmeraldDragon]

Look lets make this simple.

You shouldnt have to declare the name of the card you wanna bring back before flipping the card as say you decide to bring back a heavy hitter and then decide against it you dont really have a choice cos youve already told your opp you have call or prem there ready to be used.

Also if you declare the card you wanna bring back before flipping the card your opponent might jump the gun and jam it with something and you can then say or maybe i wont. Then your opp starts calling judges over calling you on stuff for that too.

How it should happen.

1. Check graveyard for monster to bring back. (if impatient skip step one)
2. Flip call/prem/whatever the hell your using.
3. If step one was skipped search the graveyard for a monster to bring back (if step one was followed skip this step)
4. Announce the monster you wish to bring back without removing said monster from the graveyard.
5. Pass priority to the opponent so they may respond.

Its so simple I really dont get why people are trying to make it more awkward.

 

[masterwoo0]

I really dont see what the issue is. Whether you do it before you activate Call of the Haunted or after, Call STILL hasn't resolved, so why does it make a difference?? Even if you don't have a monster in the Graveyard, it's just flipped face-down with no penalty.

The opponent can still chain most any card he wants to either prevent the summon, or remove the monster from the Graveyard before Call of the Haunted can Special Summon it.

I'm not understanding why this thread had to reach a page full of replies when it really is a simple question/answer.

 

[EmeraldDragon]

Because such questions never have simple answers when human nature is involved. If things are called before the card is flipped then the opponent can jump the gun while you change your mind and having a little more information on your opponents field.

 

[Tkwiget]

I was under the impression that most of the judging community that judge at events know how targetting effects work.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Eh. You never know. I once saw a regionals judge instruct two players that both monsters engaged in battle die after the defender activated Waboku. My friend who was playing, the defender, shrugged rather then argue. On the way home he joked: "Apparently, I've got three more Mirror Forces in my deck!"