Checking: requirements for activation

D

Dr Sin

New Member
All right, this was already discussed but this specific point was not completely clarified (at least for me):

The situation is responding to an attack:

My opponent has a Blade Knight face-up in attack mode, 3 cards in hand. I have one Chiron The Mage in face-up attack mode and one set s/t (it's a Magic Cylinder). Right, he it comes:

1) This I really want to confirm: who has the right to 1st respond to an attack, turn player or non-turn player? Example: Turn player, after declaring the attack activates Enemy Controller, before opponent respond with anything. Does he have the right to do it? (be the 1st link on the chain)

2) For the first question, I believe the answer is yes, turn-player can first respond to an attack. But let's say he attacks with Blade and doesn't respond with anything. As the Blade is weaker than Chiron at this moment, I choose not to respond. Than, as I didn't respond, opponent activates EC from hand, targeting my Chiron. At this moment, can I still activate my Magic Cylinder (is the time still correct)? I believe that yes, I can.

thanks in advance.
 
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Yu-Gi-Oh! Turn Structure (Activation Windows)

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<Draw Phase>
NOTE: Currently there is no actual activation window prior to the draw in which a player could manually activate an effect... i expect this to change in the future.

[Event] -> TP draws 1 card from his/her Deck.
{Draw Response Chain}
- TP can pass, or activate an effect.
- OP can pass, or activate an effect.

{Non-Response Chain}
- TP can pass (end Phase), or activate an effect.
- OP can pass (end Phase), or activate an effect.

</Draw Phase>

===============
===============

<Standby Phase>
{Non-Response Chain}
- TP can pass (end Phase), activate an effect, or activate (or resolve) a Standby Phase effect.
- OP can pass (end Phase), or activate an effect, activate (or resolve) a Standby Phase effect.

NOTE: When there are outstanding Standby Phase specific effects, they must be resolved (at some point during the Phase) before you can choose to end the Phase.

</Standby Phase>

===============
===============

<Main Phase 1>
{Non-Response Chain}
- TP can pass (end Phase and enter Battle Phase, or end Turn), activate an effect, or summon a monster.
- OP can pass (end Phase and enter the Battle Phase, or end Turn), or activate an effect.

</Main Phase 1>

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Optional: <Battle Phase> (Only if you choose to enter this Phase from <Main Phase 1>)

1.) <Start Step>
{Non-Response Chain}
- TP can pass (end Step), or activate an effect.
- OP can pass (end Step), or activate an effect.
</Start Step>

2.) <Battle Step>
{Non-Response Chain}
- TP can pass (end Step), activate an effect, or declare an attack.
- OP can pass (end Step), activate an effect.

Optional: {Attack Response Chain} (will only occur if an attack is declared at the </Battle Step>)

Optional: <Damage Step> (Will only occur if an attack declaration is successful)

<End Step>
- TP can pass (end Step and Phase), or activate an effect.
- OP can pass (end Step and Phase), or activate an effect.
</End Step>

</Battle Phase>

===============
===============

Optional: <Main Phase 2> (Only occurs if you conduct a <Battle Phase>)
{Non-Response Chain}
- TP can pass (end Phase), activate an effect, or summon a monster.
- OP can pass (end Phase), or activate an effect.

</Main Phase 2>

===============
===============

<End Phase>
{Non-Response Chain}
- TP can pass (end Phase and Turn), activate an effect, or activate (or resolve) an End Phase effect.
- OP can pass (end Phase and Turn), or activate an effect, activate (or resolve) an End Phase effect.

NOTE: Similar to the Standby Phase, all outstanding Phase specific effects must be resolved (at some point during the Phase) before you can choose to end the Phase and Turn.

</End Phase>
NOTE: All "End of Turn" effects occur at this point.
===============
===============


Ok ...so... i hope this helps. That is a complete basic map of all the default activation windows, as best i know.

As you can see, it is Response Chains that are optional, the Non-Response is the windows in which Phase/Step ending is performed.

The only outstanding thing for me, which definately can be debated and im not 100% sure of, is the Battle Step's first window. Is the Battle Step started by a declaration? thus taking away the Non-Response, and leaving it for after the Attack Response. It could make sense, since druing the Battle Phase, if a new eligable monster becomes available to attack, you can declare an attack, and return to the Battle Step.

Other that that one fine detail, the rest of the chart should be accurate.
 
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John Danker said:
The last "fact" is still that a monster was summoned, it's as simple as that, therefore, the timing is still correct. It has nothing to do with priority or response windows.
Click to expand...
...which brings up this scenario:

P1 summons Gemini Elf.
P1 passes
P2 passes
P1 passes
P2 passes
P1 passes
P2 passes
P1 passes
P2 passes
P1 passes
P2 passes
P1 activates Torrential Tribute

I'll never understand what logic comes into play there. Cause either I'm just dumb, or this is not the game for me...

-pssvr
 
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John Danker said:
You're reading too much into it. Is the timing still correct? Yes, nothing more needs to be added.
Click to expand...
I always read too much into stuff. The timing is still correct in the example I gave. Or is it? IMO, when someone passes priority, they aren't kidding. They pass. They say they have nothing more to activate. If a person can change their mind after passing, then what is the point of passing in the first place?

*is lost, as usual*

-pssvr
 
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John Danker said:
You're reading too much into it. Is the timing still correct? Yes, nothing more needs to be added.
Click to expand...
If Kevin was correct...then you technicaly, from a mechanical point of view...would never be able to end a Phase. You would never be able to get out of the Draw Phase.

Why you ask?...because the Draw Response would never end...

Since we can't end a Phase/Step with outstanding timing, we would end up stuck, and never be able to double pass and achieve the Non-Response neccessary to end a Phase/Step.

A fundamental and glaring flaw...proving that Kevin is wrong.
 
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novastar said:
If Kevin was correct...then you technicaly, from a mechanical point of view...would never be able to end a Phase. You would never be able to get out of the Draw Phase.

Why you ask?...because the Draw Reponse would never end, due to the fact that you can never double pass to achieve the Non-Response neccessary to end a Phase/Step. We can't end a Phase/Step with outstanding timing.

A fundamental and glaring flaw...proving that Kevin logic is wrong.
Click to expand...
Exactly, that's what I was saying with my example. If passing doesn't really mean passing, then the game just stops. Passing has to be absolute, you can't change your mind after a pass and go back, or else it is mechanically impossible to continue. Kind of like theTwilight Zone.

-pssvr
 
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novastar said:
If Kevin was correct...then you technicaly, from a mechanical point of view...would never be able to end a Phase. You would never be able to get out of the Draw Phase.

Why you ask?...because the Draw Response would never end...

Since we can't end a Phase/Step with outstanding timing, we would end up stuck, and never be able to double pass and achieve the Non-Response neccessary to end a Phase/Step.

A fundamental and glaring flaw...proving that Kevin is wrong.
Click to expand...

Again we're making this too difficult. All you need to do is ask, "Is there anything you wish to activate before we end the phase?" ...."No" ....It's been aGreed that the phase is ended, move on.

As for butting in :icon_mrgr It's my job, I'm one of the moderators of this area.
 
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Whats simple to me John, is that when something happens...both players have to to decide what you are going to do about it, before you can decide to move on. Keeping the timing alive, doesn't work.

If simplicity is what they want...How about...You either respond or you don't...that is simple.

Both players can't say "No" and then all of the sudden one turns around and says "Yes", after already saying "No".

Is there anything you wish to activate before we end the phase?" ...."No" ....It's been aGreed that the phase is ended, move on.
Click to expand...
That is exactly the same thing as a Non-Response... but in plain english.

This is just a flawed as the Exiled Force debacle.
 
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We've debated this topic before a number of times.
I'm stating the way it's ruled and will continue to be ruled until otherwise notified.

I can certainly see the logic in the statements made agaist the ruling. I'll agree it certainly can make things confusing.

There are certainly rulings that I don't agree with either (see the Unsolved Mysteries thread) I shouldn't, however, rule as *I* see fit but rather as the rules have been publicly given for purposes of consistancy (something we'll all agree I believe there isn't enough of in this game)
 
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John Danker said:
We've debated this topic before a number of times.
I'm stating the way it's ruled and will continue to be ruled until otherwise notified.

I can certainly see the logic in the statements made agaist the ruling. I'll agree it certainly can make things confusing.

There are certainly rulings that I don't agree with either (see the Unsolved Mysteries thread) I shouldn't, however, rule as *I* see fit but rather as the rules have been publicly given for purposes of consistancy (something we'll all agree I believe there isn't enough of in this game)
Click to expand...
But that's just it. Where is it 'ruled' or 'printed' or 'officially posted' about the Summon/Torrential Tribute thing? The only thing I've ever seen about it is from you. And even at that, it was Kevin said it at the Shonen Jump, or Nationals or wherever it was and he was in a hurry (if I remember correctly).
 
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John Danker said:
We've debated this topic before a number of times.
I'm stating the way it's ruled and will continue to be ruled until otherwise notified.

I can certainly see the logic in the statements made agaist the ruling. I'll agree it certainly can make things confusing.

There are certainly rulings that I don't agree with either (see the Unsolved Mysteries thread) I shouldn't, however, rule as *I* see fit but rather as the rules have been publicly given for purposes of consistancy (something we'll all agree I believe there isn't enough of in this game)
Click to expand...
I kinow John, i'm not suggesting another lengthly debate...i just wanted to make sure the other side was presented along with your statements.

We agree that things are a constant evolution.

I personally, as well as the other judges in the toronto area where i am, don't currently rule it that way. It may not be in complete accordance with Kevin's words, but it is consistant.

Of course if i were to judge at a UDE event, i would rule it the way they want it.
 
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For the record and with hopes of getting people on the same track (no matter what track that is) I've posted the following question on the judge's list. Let's hope they see fit to answer it.
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Yugi summons his Gemini Elf and chooses not to begin a chain.

Kiaba has no response to the summon and passes priority back to Yugi.

Yugi activates Mystical Space Typhoon targeting Kiaba's face down spell / trap card.

Kiaba chains the Bottomless Trap Hole that Yugi targeted to with Mystical Space Typhoon.

Is Gemini Elf destroyed by Bottomless Trap Hole since the last thing to resolve was the summoning of a monster with 1500 ATK or greater?
 
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Raijinili said:
Exception?
Click to expand...

Since at this time there can be no more than one chain in the damage step it would not need to be aGreed upon that the damage step has ended.

Keep in mind though that the damage step is not a phase in and of itself.

The rule still applies, no PHASE ends until both players agree that it ends.
 
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Raijinili said:
I have no idea what you're talking about.

Player A's Sangan attacks Player B's Reflect Bounder. Player A chains Barrel Behind the Door (or Divine Wrath; I'm not gonna bother to check legality of Barrel) to Reflect Bounder's effect. Player B chains 7 Tools of the Bandit. Chain resolves.

Then Player B chains Divine Wrath to Sangan's effect at the end of the Damage step.
Click to expand...
To phrase it more specifically, there can be only one chain that is manually started in the Damage Step PRIOR to damage calculation. Afterwards, there can of course be another chain...

-pssvr
 
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<laffin at myself> Well done, I hadn't even considered a scenario with Refect Bounder....thank you for enlightening me with that!

and yes...pssvr has worded it much better, thank you all for your input!
 
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Or rather:

You may only manually start one chain in any sub-step of the damage step.

If one chain starts automatically in that sub-step you may not manually start another one.

A second one may be started in a single sub-step automatically. (e.g. Gilfer Archfiend discarded by Don Zaloog would start a second chain, still in the "apply damage" sub-step.)
 
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