Checking: requirements for activation

[Dr Sin]

All right, this was already discussed but this specific point was not completely clarified (at least for me):

The situation is responding to an attack:

My opponent has a Blade Knight face-up in attack mode, 3 cards in hand. I have one Chiron The Mage in face-up attack mode and one set s/t (it's a Magic Cylinder). Right, he it comes:

1) This I really want to confirm: who has the right to 1st respond to an attack, turn player or non-turn player? Example: Turn player, after declaring the attack activates Enemy Controller, before opponent respond with anything. Does he have the right to do it? (be the 1st link on the chain)

2) For the first question, I believe the answer is yes, turn-player can first respond to an attack. But let's say he attacks with Blade and doesn't respond with anything. As the Blade is weaker than Chiron at this moment, I choose not to respond. Than, as I didn't respond, opponent activates EC from hand, targeting my Chiron. At this moment, can I still activate my Magic Cylinder (is the time still correct)? I believe that yes, I can.

thanks in advance.

 

[Tkwiget]

Turn Player has priority to respond with a card when entering a Phase/Step or in response to his/her own summoning and declared attack.

So in your last example Krazy, the Turn Player could activate Book of Moon in response to his/her own monster declaring an attack because he/she is Turn Player.

If Turn Player doesn't have priority to do that, they they shouldn't have priority to activate cards like Tribe-Infecting Virus and Exiled Force when they're first summoned.

 

[novastar]

P1: Declares attack with Blade Knight to Chiron.
P1: Doesn't respond to the declared attack.
P2: Doesn't respond to the declared attack.
P1: Responds with Enemy Controller in the Non-Attack Response Window.
P2: Has nothing to chain to it.


Impossible. Enemy Controller has been illegally activated. The absence of any response to the attack means there will be no non-responsive window.

As far as all the non-official sources (mainly the JERP) that i've seen...this is perfectly legal.

There is always 3 windows at the Battle Step.

1.) Non-Response -> You can declare the attack here
2.) Attack Response -> Mirror Force and attack timed effect can only be activated here
3.) Non-Response -> after Attack Response has been resolved

The only case where all three 3 windows don't occur, is in the case of a Replay.

 

[Jason_C]

As far as all the non-official sources (mainly the JERP) that i've seen...this is perfectly legal.

There is always 3 windows at the Battle Step.

1.) Non-Response -> You can declare the attack here
2.) Attack Response -> Mirror Force and attack timed effect can only be activated here
3.) Non-Response -> after Attack Response has been resolved

The only case where all three 3 windows don't occur, is in the case of a Replay.

If this is true, it is an anomaly in the game mechanics. This is because the non-responsive window effectively serves no purpose here. There is nothing that can be activated in the non-responsive window that could not just as easily have been activated in the response window.

And, as always, this directly brings up the point of endless passing.

-pssvr

 

[novastar]

There is nothing that can be activated in the non-responsive window that could not just as easily have been activated in the response window.

What if there is a strategic point to it.

For example, i want to wait to see if a response to my Spirit Ryu attacking will occur, before i waste a Dragon from my hand.

So i wait till the Attack Response is resolved...and then use the effect of Spirit Ryu afterwards (in the Non-Response), prior to entering the Damage Step.

This is not about activation capability, but more about giving players functionality and strategic options. The only Step that seems to be limited in this regard is the Damage Step.

Every other Phase/Step is ended by passing on a Non-Response window. So where is the anomaly? if anything it is perfectly inline with all other Phases/Steps.

 

[krazykidpsx]

a summon doesnt start a chain block. but an attack does.

 

[novastar]

a summon doesnt start a chain block. but an attack does.

No an attack declaration doesn't, both are non-chainable events.

 

[Jason_C]

<EDIT: Two posts got in before I posted this. So back up 2, and you'll see what I'm replying to>



...which, although true, does not make this any less of an anomaly. I know of no other YGO rule that exists soley for strategical purposes.

Quite frankly, I feel as though my non-responsive window concept is being misinterpreted here. Let me explain what it was ORGINALLY created for...

It was used in the Main Phase, to explain what happens after a summon. So, here's what goes on:

P1 summons Breaker the Magical Warrior.

P1 now has priority to, among other things, activate breaker's effect. HOWEVER, there are certain things P1 CANNOT DO, most notably activate spell speed 1 effects other than ignition effects.

P1 chooses NOT to activate anything, surrendering priority to P2.

P2 also chooses NOT to activate anything, thereby ending the response window.

Instead of leaving Main Phase 1, as might be expected, we now pass into a Non-responsive window. Why? Because P1 might have something else they want to do before entering the Battle Phase, most notable activate spell speed 1 effects other than ignition effects.

...and that's what it's all about. In the example I just gave, the response window had limits, so after it ended, we went to a non-responsive window.

-pssvr

 

[krazykidpsx]

okay then,

Then you can do it in that order.

since both dont start chain blocks, then you are the turn player have priority to activate something.

 

[skey23]

So, would this be a valid scenario?

Player A has the following Spell/Trap Cards set from a previous turn: 2 "Trap Jammer"s and a "Book of Moon".
Player A has a face-up attack position "Mystic Swordsman LV4".
Player B has a face-up attack position "Mobius the Frost Monarch"
Player B has the following cards set from a previous turn: 2 "Gravity Bind"s and a "Sakuretsu Armor".

It's Player A's turn.
They declare their attack with "Mystic Swordsman LV4" choosing to attack Player B's "Mobius the Frost Monarch".
Player a has Priority to respond, and they activate their set "Book of Moon" targeting the "Mobius the Frost Monarch".
Player B chains with "Sakuretsu Armor".
Player A chains with "Trap Jammer".
Player B does not respond, and the chain resolves.
"Trap Jammer" negates and destroys "Sakuretsu Armor", then "Book of Moon" resolves flipping "Mobius the Frost Monarch" into face-down defense position. All remaining cards involved in the chain are sent to the Graveyard.
Player A thinks his attack is gonna go thru now, but Player B activates a "Gravity Bind". (What is the trigger to activate this card? I usually say "as a result of a card going to the Graveyard, I'll activate...")
Player A chains his last "Trap Jammer".
Player B does not respond and the 2nd chain now resolves.
"Trap Jammer" negates and destroys "Gravity Bind", then "Trap Jammer" is sent to the Graveyard.

Now, here's the big question...Can Player B activate their last "Gravity Bind" before the beginning of the Damage Step? We've gone through the Attack Response Window and the Non-response Window. Or would the fact a card went to the Graveyard be enough to begin another chain?

Thanks.

 

[Jason_C]

So, would this be a valid scenario?

Player A has the following Spell/Trap Cards set from a previous turn: 2 "Trap Jammer"s and a "Book of Moon".
Player A has a face-up attack position "Mystic Swordsman LV4".
Player B has a face-up attack position "Mobius the Frost Monarch"
Player B has the following cards set from a previous turn: 2 "Gravity Bind"s and a "Sakuretsu Armor".

It's Player A's turn.
They declare their attack with "Mystic Swordsman LV4" choosing to attack Player B's "Mobius the Frost Monarch".
Player a has Priority to respond, and they activate their set "Book of Moon" targeting the "Mobius the Frost Monarch".
Player B chains with "Sakuretsu Armor".
Player A chains with "Trap Jammer".
Player B does not respond, and the chain resolves.
"Trap Jammer" negates and destroys "Sakuretsu Armor", then "Book of Moon" resolves flipping "Mobius the Frost Monarch" into face-down defense position. All remaining cards involved in the chain are sent to the Graveyard.
Player A thinks his attack is gonna go thru now, but Player B activates a "Gravity Bind". (What is the trigger to activate this card? I usually say "as a result of a card going to the Graveyard, I'll activate...")
Player A chains his last "Trap Jammer".
Player B does not respond and the 2nd chain now resolves.
"Trap Jammer" negates and destroys "Gravity Bind", then "Trap Jammer" is sent to the Graveyard.

Now, here's the big question...Can Player B activate their last "Gravity Bind" before the beginning of the Damage Step? We've gone through the Attack Response Window and the Non-response Window. Or would the fact a card went to the Graveyard be enough to begin another chain?

Thanks.

Yes, they can. Yes, that is a valid scenario. And nothing triggers the Gravity Bind, it is a non-responsive window.

-pssvr

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

...which, although true, does not make this any less of an anomaly. I know of no other YGO rule that exists soley for strategical purposes.

Blowback Dragon targets a spell/trap card.

Ruling: The Coin Flips happen at resolution.

This gives a strategic advantage, as the opponent doesn't know whether or not the Spell or Trap will be destroyed.

Keeping in mind that the targetted card is probably chainable in the metegame, this can turn Blowback Dragon into an almost guaranteed destroy one spell or trap card a turn. Simply because the opponent will have to activate the card, or risk it being destroyed without getting its effect.


And isn't the passing of priority to resolve effects in the Standby phase or the end phase giving people a strategic advantage?

 

[novastar]

Instead of leaving Main Phase 1, as might be expected, we now pass into a Non-responsive window. Why? Because P1 might have something else they want to do before entering the Battle Phase, most notable activate spell speed 1 effects other than ignition effects.

I see what you are saying...but it doesn't hold weight. This is not about Spell Speed or activation capability...it's simply about making sure both players have finished, before moving on.

The Draw Phase is limited to Spell Speed 2's (or higher), but a Non-Response must be passed on before moving on.

The same holds true for the Standby Phase, the End Phase, The Start/End Step and the Battle Phase itself...

I know it feels a little weird, but in the context of the game it actually makes more sense, and makes the Battle Step like every other Phase/Step in the game.

 

[skey23]

Quite frankly, I feel as though my non-responsive window concept is being misinterpreted here. Let me explain what it was ORGINALLY created for...

It was used in the Main Phase, to explain what happens after a summon. So, here's what goes on:

P1 summons Breaker the Magical Warrior.

P1 now has priority to, among other things, activate breaker's effect. HOWEVER, there are certain things P1 CANNOT DO, most notably activate spell speed 1 effects other than ignition effects.

P1 chooses NOT to activate anything, surrendering priority to P2.

P2 also chooses NOT to activate anything, thereby ending the response window.

Instead of leaving Main Phase 1, as might be expected, we now pass into a Non-responsive window. Why? Because P1 might have something else they want to do before entering the Battle Phase, most notable activate spell speed 1 effects other than ignition effects.

...and that's what it's all about. In the example I just gave, the response window had limits, so after it ended, we went to a non-responsive window.

-pssvr

Ok, so I'm going to copy, as best I can exaclty what YOU just said and change summon to declare attack. And activate effect to activate Spell/Trap....Here goes...lol

P1 declares attack with "Breaker the Magical Warrior".
P1 now has Priority to, among other things, activate any valid Spell/Trap cards. HOWEVER, there are certain things P1 CANNOT DO, most notably activate spell speed 1 effects.
P1 chooses NOT to activate anything, surrendering priority to P2.
P2 also chooses NOT to activate anything, thereby ending the Attack Response Window.
Instead of leaving the Battle Step, as might be expected, we now pass into a Non-responsive window. Why? Because P1 might have something else they want to do before entering the Damage Step, most notable activate spell speed 2 effects that don't have any activation requirements, like "Enemy Controller".

...and that's what it's all about. In the example I just gave, the response window had limits, so after it ended, we went to a non-responsive window.

Now, tell me how that's any different than what I've said from the beginning?...lol.

 

[Jason_C]

Blowback Dragon targets a spell/trap card.

Ruling: The Coin Flips happen at resolution.

This gives a strategic advantage, as the opponent doesn't know whether or not the Spell or Trap will be destroyed.

Keeping in mind that the targetted card is probably chainable in the metegame, this can turn Blowback Dragon into an almost guaranteed destroy one spell or trap card a turn. Simply because the opponent will have to activate the card, or risk it being destroyed without getting its effect.


And isn't the passing of priority to resolve effects in the Standby phase or the end phase giving people a strategic advantage?

Quite frankly, no. That would be what I, personally, would call a fact of the game. Not one intentionally designed to benefit one player. You could just as easily rule it the other way, and it would benefit the other player. So the rule was not created for strategy.

I see what you are saying...but it doesn't hold weight. This is not about Spell Speed or activation capability...it's simply about making sure both players have finished, before moving on.

Yes, sir, I see what YOU are saying, but... IT doesn't hold weight either. If they have something they want to activate, why not activate it in response to the attack? Duelists aren't babies, and we don't need to ask them, "Are you sure?" The opportunity is given, if they don't take it, it's their loss. I can't see any reason for giving them a second opportunity.

The Draw Phase is limited to Spell Speed 2's (or higher), but a Non-Response must be passed on before moving on.

That is not correct (how terse...). There is a response opportunity, and no non-responsive window if both players pass.

The same holds true for the Standby Phase, the End Phase, The Start/End Step and the Battle Phase itself...

I'm fairly confident that that, too, is not correct. Although I may be mistaken...

-pssvr

 

[Jason_C]

Ok, so I'm going to copy, as best I can exaclty what YOU just said and change summon to declare attack. And activate effect to activate Spell/Trap....Here goes...lol

P1 declares attack with "Breaker the Magical Warrior".
P1 now has Priority to, among other things, activate any valid Spell/Trap cards. HOWEVER, there are certain things P1 CANNOT DO, most notably activate spell speed 1 effects.
P1 chooses NOT to activate anything, surrendering priority to P2.
P2 also chooses NOT to activate anything, thereby ending the Attack Response Window.
Instead of leaving the Battle Step, as might be expected, we now pass into a Non-responsive window. Why? Because P1 might have something else they want to do before entering the Damage Step, most notable activate spell speed 2 effects that don't have any activation requirements, like "Enemy Controller".

...and that's what it's all about. In the example I just gave, the response window had limits, so after it ended, we went to a non-responsive window.

Now, tell me how that's any different than what I've said from the beginning?...lol.

umm... but EC could have been activated in response to the attack

-pssvr

 

[novastar]

They are correct... you never move on in this game unless both players agree to (or as i like it, pass on a non-response).

The only exception to this is the Damage Step.

 

[skey23]

umm... but EC could have been activated in response to the attack

-pssvr

It doesn't matter that it COULD have been activated in response to the attack. The point is that by passing on the Attack Response Window, you are forcing your opponent to make the decision to activate their set "Sakuretsu Armor", "Draining Shield", "Mirror Force", "Magic Cylinders", etc..right then and there. If they don't activate it, then that window is closed and gone. Then comes the Non-response window, if you activate something here, then you're guaranteed not to have it chained to by anything mentioned above, thus giving you, possibly, that little strategic 'edge' to get ahead in the game.

 

[Jason_C]

They are correct... you never move on in this game unless both players agree to (or as i like it, pass on a non-response).

The only exception to this is the Damage Step.

Yeah... but... If I draw, there is a response window. If both players pass, that window ends, as does the phase.

There are only two instances in which there will EVER be a non-response window. THey are:

1. During the Main Phase, when a monster has been summoned. THis is because there are very strict regulations on what can and cannot be activated in response to a summon.

2. After a chain has resolved during a response window, a new window opens. This is sometimes referred to as the opportunity to begin a response chain.

-pssvr

 

[skey23]

Yeah... but... If I draw, there is a response window. If both players pass, that window ends, as does the phase.

Are you gonna make me copy your Non-response Window thing again and change it for the Draw Phase? Or for all of the Phases?...lol...:duel_no_j

 

[Jason_C]

It doesn't matter that it COULD have been activated in response to the attack. The point is that by passing on the Attack Response Window, you are forcing your opponent to make the decision to activate their set "Sakuretsu Armor", "Draining Shield", "Mirror Force", "Magic Cylinders", etc..right then and there. If they don't activate it, then that window is closed and gone. Then comes the Non-response window, if you activate something here, then you're guaranteed not to have it chained to by anything mentioned above, thus giving you, possibly, that little strategic 'edge' to get ahead in the game.

I still do not see why the game creates this new window just for the attacking player's benefit. If, on the other hand, it were ruled that, in response to an attack, ONLY cards that say "When your opponent declares an attack..." could be activated, then that would present an automatic non-responsive window after the response window for EC to be activated, since it could not be activated during the response window. But it hasn't, so it can, so it doesn't.

-pssvr