Cyber Archfiend w/Heart of Clear Water

Dillie-O

Dillie-O

Council of Heroes
Hey all, something I'm trying to verify here.

If Cyber Archfiend is equipped with Heart of Clear Water and Cyber's effect triggers to destroy itself, does HOCW prevent this?

I'm thinking not, because Cyber isn't targetting itself, its more of a condition placed upon itself, but I want to get some verification here.

It seems a bit to me like how Necrofear doesn't target itself when special summoning from the graveyard, which is why Necrovalley doesn't stop it.
 
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No HaDes anti-reborn is a continuous effect. More akin to Elemental Mistress Doriado.

Here are a couple well known conditions.

Magical Scientist's conditions it places on the summoned monster.

Summoner of Illusions' condition it places on the summoned monster.

The aforementioned Return from the Different Dimension.

The condition Last Will sets up after being played.

These all share some basic characteristics:

1) They are effects that don't require the card generating them to stick around.

2) Once the condition has been set the negators have no power over them.

For example: Jinzo is summoned with Return from the Different Dimension - he will still be returned to out of play in the end phase.

Example 2: Magical Scientist summons Dark Flare Knight, Skill Drain is activated after the summon has resolved, Dark Flare Knight[/ycard\ will not be able to attack the opponent's life points directly and will still return to the fusion deck in the End Phase.

Example 3: Last Will is activated and resolves. Then Imperial Order is activated and resolves. Imperial Order will not prevent the summoning of the monster when a monster goes to the graveyard.','ycard','width=600,height=600'); return false;">Dark Flare Knight[/ycard\ will not be able to attack the opponent's life points directly and will still return to the fusion deck in the End Phase.

Example 3: Last Will is activated and resolves. Then Imperial Order is activated and resolves. Imperial Order will not prevent the summoning of the monster when a monster goes to the graveyard.
 
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chaosruler said:
Not the best example. This is from Card Registry:


Well, Doriado is both an effect and a condition. Talk about a blurry line. It doesn't even exist. >_< lol

-John
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Sorry, Dark Ruler HaDes effect that does not permit him being special summoned from the graveyard is a condition. We need more definitive terms to seperate some of these.
 
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anthonyj said:
We need more definitive terms to seperate some of these.
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That's what I was trying to provoke with my question. There has to be more to the answer, "It's a Condition". What exactly defines a condition? And, in the case of Misstress Doriado, exactly how many other cards share this type of similar mechanics?
 
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Well we know the fusion substitutes share this type of condition/effect. The nomi monsters would also fall into the condition/effect category. The spirit monsters. That's all off the top of my head. I'm sure we could come up with a few more.
 
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First off, my initial post stated that outside of targeting effects that may or may not slesct the souce o the targeting effect, here are no self-targeting cards that I know of. Penguin Soldier, Hade-Hane and Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning fall into that catagory. They may or may not target themselves. But they are not exclusively self-targeting.

Secondly, where on earth are coming up with the idea that Cyber Archfiend's second effect is a condition? It's an effect that tiggers at the End Phase when its face-up on the field.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
First off, my initial post stated that outside of targeting effects that may or may not slesct the souce o the targeting effect, here are no self-targeting cards that I know of. Penguin Soldier, Hade-Hane and Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning fall into that catagory. They may or may not target themselves. But they are not exclusively self-targeting.
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Slate Warrior's flip effect does select itself. But then you get into that "it's not targeting if you can't select" issue. The very term "exclusively self-targeting" means not-targeting in the game.

But I definitely agree with you that Cyber Archfiend's second effect is most certainly not a condition. It will depend on whether Konami clarifies that it starts a chain or not to truly define it as either Trigger or Continuous (I would hazard a guess that this falls under Continuous and will not start a chain) either way Heart of Clear Water won't save it as the above mentioned "if you can't select the target it isn't a targeting effect" rule means Heart of Clear Water would have no effect on Cyber Archfiend blowing itself up.
 
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How can Cyber Archfiend start a chain when he's destroyed? Anyway, I just don't see how you can call him being destroyed if his controller has x amount of cards in hand at End Phase an effect. I think if it is an effect, it is similar to Doriado in that it is still a condition as well.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
How can Cyber Archfiend start a chain when he's destroyed? Anyway, I just don't see how you can call him being destroyed if his controller has x amount of cards in hand at End Phase an effect. I think if it is an effect, it is similar to Doriado in that it is still a condition as well.
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The same way that Giant Kozaky blowing up if Kozaky isn't on the field is a Continuous Effect. Or that Toon Gemini Elf not being able to attack the turn it is summoned is a Continuous Effect. They phrase Doriado a "condition" because "effects" are only active "on the field" (which honestly is so very far from true just ask Kuriboh). We use too few words in this game for too many things. Fusilier Dragon is a good example of this with the current debate about whether a set without tribute Fusilier is full strength or half strength while it is face-down. Logic would tell you that it is half strength as it used it's effect in order to avoid being tribute summoned, but the old "face-down monsters don't have effects" argument says it would be full strength and just remembering that once it is flipped face-up it has to reduce itself.
 
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anthonyj said:
Right. It was clarified that maintenance costs were not negated. But are you suggesting that having no hand in the End Phase is a maintenance cost?
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No way!! That's totally way off the beaten path, even for me!!! lol

But what Im saying is, the clarity with which the effect of destroying himself at the End Phase is just unsettling. Yes, it may be an effect, and as it is considered to trigger at the End Phase, given the "condition" that you have 1 or more cards in hand, I just can't seem to let that part go.

But, would it "really" be that hard to accept if they did actually rule that it was some type of bizarre Maintenance Cost?
 
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No. I can easily envision that ruling being passed down. I think that may cause more problems according to comparison to other rulings, but that's never stopped them before.
 
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