Cyber Archfiend w/Heart of Clear Water

Dillie-O

Dillie-O

Council of Heroes
Hey all, something I'm trying to verify here.

If Cyber Archfiend is equipped with Heart of Clear Water and Cyber's effect triggers to destroy itself, does HOCW prevent this?

I'm thinking not, because Cyber isn't targetting itself, its more of a condition placed upon itself, but I want to get some verification here.

It seems a bit to me like how Necrofear doesn't target itself when special summoning from the graveyard, which is why Necrovalley doesn't stop it.
 
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As far as I know, there are no exclusively "self-targeting" effects in Yu-Gi-Oh!, other than a targeting effect that may or may not target the source of the effect.
 
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Dillie-O said:
Hey all, something I'm trying to verify here.

If Cyber Archfiend is equipped with Heart of Clear Water and Cyber's effect triggers to destroy itself, does HOCW prevent this?

I'm thinking not, because Cyber isn't targetting itself, its more of a condition placed upon itself, but I want to get some verification here.

It seems a bit to me like how Necrofear doesn't target itself when special summoning from the graveyard, which is why Necrovalley doesn't stop it.
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As far as I know, there are no "self-targeting" cards. The only way a target can be selected, is by another card.
 
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I prefer Novastar's terminology of it being a 'lingering effect', not a condition.

For example, wouldn't the destruction part of Cyber Archfiend be delayed by an active Skill Drain?

Also, with Cyber Archfiend, it couldn't target unless it was specifically choosing a monster, could it? Its not like it can decide which monster is destroyed, it destroys itself.

Maybe Im reading too much into it, but I was comparing it to how DDWL does not target, since the monster it removes IS the monster it battles. No choice is involved.
 
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squid said:
I prefer Novastar's terminology of it being a 'lingering effect', not a condition.

For example, wouldn't the destruction part of Cyber Archfiend be delayed by an active Skill Drain?

Also, with Cyber Archfiend, it couldn't target unless it was specifically choosing a monster, could it? Its not like it can decide which monster is destroyed, it destroys itself.

Maybe Im reading too much into it, but I was comparing it to how DDWL does not target, since the monster it removes IS the monster it battles. No choice is involved.
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How can it be a "Lingering Effect"? Is the condition of Armor Exe a "Lingering Effect"? It can't be negated by Skill Drain.

I dont see this as an effect that can be negated. It's a condition and not an effect.
 
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I'm willing to accept it if it is determined to be an effect, but I really don't see it as such. I mean, it reads like most cards that have a condition.

Premature Burial

(Paraphrasing) "If this card is destroyed, destroy the monster".

Giant Kozaky

(Paraphrasing) "If there is not face-up Kozaky on you side of the field, destroy this card".


Now, can Cave Dragon's condition be negated by Skill Drain? Yes. So that brings up a interesting point of view since the attacking part is again, a "condition".
 
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Cyber Archfiend will lose both its drawing help and its destruction help when Skill Drain is on the field. Both effects are trigger effects, tied to the draw and end phases of the turn.

Well, I know that maintenance conditions can't be negated by Skill Drain, but I believe destruction/activation/etc. costs can be negated by Skill Drain. But all face up effects are negated by Skill Drain. Armor Exe could attack the turn that it is summoned if Skill Drain is already out, but you still have to do perform the spell counter maintenance cost to keep him out.

Similarly, Giant Kozaky and Cyber Archfiend's effects are "lingering", but they aren't maintenance costs, so that's why they can stay active out there.

Cave Dragon can attack if there are other dragons on your side of the field, yes while Skill Drain is out. However, Cave Dragon still can't be normal summoned, however, if there is another monster on your side of the field, because Cave Dragon isn't on the field to have this negated, in addition to the fact that its a summoning cost.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
I'm willing to accept it if it is determined to be an effect, but I really don't see it as such. I mean, it reads like most cards that have a condition.

Premature Burial

(Paraphrasing) "If this card is destroyed, destroy the monster".

Giant Kozaky

(Paraphrasing) "If there is not face-up Kozaky on you side of the field, destroy this card".


Now, can Cave Dragon's condition be negated by Skill Drain? Yes. So that brings up a interesting point of view since the attacking part is again, a "condition".
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See, with the way that Horus L.6 is immune to the effects of spell cards, and the fact that it would not be destroyed if an equipping Premature Burial were destroyed, I would have been positive that the montster destruction portion, was indeed a negatable effect (or at least, by-passable), not a condition.

Same with Giant Kokazy.

Dillie-O however, outlined better the viewpoints that I was thinking of.

I still have a lot to learn about the difference between these 'lingering' effects, and conditions vs maintenence costs, though. So, I am quite willing to accept that my logic may be off. Im just trying to determine why.
 
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The destruction part of "Premature Burial" is not a condition.

"You can activate "Premature Burial" to Special Summon this card from the Graveyard, and then this card's effect will negate and destroy "Premature Burial". "Freed the Matchless General" will not be destroyed since the effect of "Premature Burial" was negated by his effect."
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And you can target "Horus LV6" in the Graveyard with Spell Cards. He's only unaffected while he's face-up on the field. (but you already know that..lol)

Also, I don't know about all this 'lingering' stuff. Neither "Giant Kozaky" nor "Cyber Archfiend" have 'lingering' effects. As stated earlier, both of "Cyber Archfiend"s effects are trigger effects based on the number of cards you have in hand.

"Skill Drain" will negate the 1st effect of "Giant Kozaky", but can't negate the 2nd effect since it will activate wherever it ends up, ie. Graveyard or Removed from Play.

"Skill Drain" will negate both effects of "Cyber Archfiend".

[edit]Wait for it........wait for it........here is comes......
I can feel the onslaught brewing....:so:
 
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Most true conditions fit the standard of a "if this happens, then this follows".

You could say that "If Premature Burial is destroyed, then the equipped monster is destroyed".

Normally, that condition will apply to most monsters. Unfortunately, since Horus LV6 is not affected by Spell Cards, it doesnt matter what the effect is, nor the condition of the card, because it is part of the Spell Card itself.

If Freed the Matchless General is brought back with Premature Burial, then the effect of equipping Premature Burial to Freed is negated, and since the actual equipping never happened, How can it be reasoned that Premature Burial could destroy Freed?
 
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No, that's a condition of the card.

[edit]He doesn't have any kind of text that says if this, then this in regards to the Graveyard.

His text simply states he cannot be Special Summoned from the Graveyard.
 
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