Dark Neo-Victory Panther Spacian Viper XX03

[Digital Jedi]

Here's a bizarre question.

Suppose Victory Viper XX03 is copied by Neo-Spacian Dark Panther. You use the third effect to Special Summon an Option Token. When the end of the turn comes, what happens to the option token?

I know what I'm thinking, but I'll let you all chime in first. (Take that Official Judges List)

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

"This card" has never been ruled to be lost based on a name change.

The effect of Vic Viper turns into a condition after its resolved i.e. it cannot be negated by negating (or erasing in this case) the effects of the token generating card.

So the tokens continue as if they were generated by a real Vic Viper.

 

[masterwoo0]

I would have to say the Option Token disappear at the end of the turn, since Victory Viper is no longer on your side of the field.

 

[densetsu_x]

I'm going to say that it will simply disappear:

"¢ If "Victory Viper XX03" leaves the field or is flipped face-down, all of its Option Tokens disappear. (Note that they are not "destroyed".)

The pseudo-Victory Viper will have left the field in the end phase. As you said, the point of reference is gone so the Token would go too.

 

[masterwoo0]

I'm going to say that it will simply disappear:

"¢ If "Victory Viper XX03" leaves the field or is flipped face-down, all of its Option Tokens disappear. (Note that they are not "destroyed".)

The pseudo-Victory Viper will have left the field in the end phase. As you said, the point of reference is gone so the Token would go too.

I didnt read down far enough on his rulings. After seeing that the tokens disappear with the real Viper, it should be no different with Panther.

No reference is the same as "no card".

 

[Maruno]

But the Option Token still references "this card". Even though the name of "this card" changes, is "this card" treated as leaving the field?

Clearly this is a unique situation, so all we can do is assume. Personally I'm not sure, but I'm verging on the side of the Option Token staying.

 

[masterwoo0]

But the Option Token still references "this card". Even though the name of "this card" changes, is "this card" treated as leaving the field?

Clearly this is a unique situation, so all we can do is assume. Personally I'm not sure, but I'm verging on the side of the Option Token staying.

"This card" is Victory Viper. It isnt any other card listed on the text other than the card itself, so why wouldn't it be a reference to Victory Viper?

For that matter, "This Card" could very well end up being a Spell or Trap for all we know, since it obviously isnt clear on what it is referencing, if it can be that confused. How do we know it isnt referencing a card like Physical Double?

Alternatively, it mentions "this card" several times throughout the card text. What card are they talking about? It certainly isnt "that card" or "the other card". It's Victory Viper's text, and Dark Panther becomes Victory Viper in name, as well as effect, while he is copying his effect. When the End Phase of the turn occurs, he then changes back to Dark Panther, who no longer has the same effect of Victory Viper, and becomes "that card" or "the other card", which is no different than effects that require you to have "this monster" on "your side of the field".

 

[Maruno]

How about, "this card" is "this bit of card on which ink is printed"? I'm pretty sure that's nonsense, but it still doesn't quite make sense to me why the Option Token should disappear.

 

[masterwoo0]

How about, "this card" is "this bit of card on which ink is printed"? I'm pretty sure that's nonsense, but it still doesn't quite make sense to me why the Option Token should disappear.

Because "this card" is no longer Victory Viper. Can Chaos Command Magician hold a Spell Counter when Apprentice Magician is flip summoned? No. Why? Because it is not a card that can hold a Spell Counter, unlike Breaker the Magical Warrior, so it is not a proper reference for Spell Counters.

Can Dark Panther create a Option Token? No. Because he isnt Victory Viper, he is Dark Panther. This card is not That Card. When That Card "becomes" This Card, then he can create a Option Token. But the option Token Refences "Victory Viper/Dark Panther", and uses the stats of Dark Panther to mimic. When the effect is no longer Valid, the Option Token no longer has a Victory Viper to reference, and only Dark Panther, who is now back to being "That Card".

Victory Viper = This Card
Dark Panther = That Card

 

[Maruno]

Ah, wait! The effect of Victory Viper XX03 says to call itself "this card". Once Neo-Spacian Dark Panther stops gettings its effect, it's no longer known as "this card". An Option Token generated by Neo-Spacian Dark Panther no longer has a "this card" to reference, and since its stats are generated by an outside effect (what was formerly "this card"), it no longer has stats and vanishes in a puff of logic (as they say).


You should have explained it like that.

 

[masterwoo0]

Ah, wait! The effect of Victory Viper XX03 says to call itself "this card". Once Neo-Spacian Dark Panther stops gettings its effect, it's no longer known as "this card". An Option Token generated by Neo-Spacian Dark Panther no longer has a "this card" to reference, and since its stats are generated by an outside effect (what was formerly "this card"), it no longer has stats and vanishes in a puff of logic (as they say).


You should have explained it like that.

Okay. Fair enough. You do understand it as I see it though.

Another way to look at it is, lets say you and a friend go to a restaurant.

Your friend is sight challenged as well as unable to speak or understand english. You order two drinks which are the same, and while you and your friend are drinking them, you suddenly have to take a phone call. You leave telling your friend that you are placing a note on your glass to state that [your friends] glass will be filled up with the same beverage as your glass contains.

So, your friend finishes his drink, but before the waitress can return (all of the waitressess are english speaking, and no one other than you can speak or even knows, your friends language), a strong wind blows the note off your drink, so the waitress will be unable to refill the empty glass with the same beverage, as she has no note telling her to do so, and without being able to communicate with the friend who doesnt speak english, she cannot determine what to put into his empty glass, so the glass will remain empty without a reference to fill it.

Now, since the Option Token must have the same stats as the effect that created it states (Because we know that Tokens do not have effects, therefore it cannot be the Token that says it will always have the same stats), that effect is no longer present, so it cannot exist without it, and disappears.

 

[Digital Jedi]

I had a wonderful counter point typed up, and my browser decided to freeze up on me. After an hour wait, and typing something up on another forum, I'm pretty sure all my typing is lost.

So to avoid all that typing again, I'll just post my closing statement. What reasoning can we use to indicate that "this card" is referring to Victory Viper XX03 and not just "this monster card"? Where do we know for sure that the effects isn't a lingering effect that it looks for the card name, and not just for the card that generated it? It seems to me there's no precident for it one way or another. But logic tells me that it shouldn't matter what the name of the card becomes. It's still the monster that generated them.

 

[Maruno]

Another way to look at it is, lets say you and a friend go to a restaurant.

Your friend is sight challenged as well as unable to speak or understand english. You order two drinks which are the same, and while you and your friend are drinking them, you suddenly have to take a phone call. You leave telling your friend that you are placing a note on your glass to state that [your friends] glass will be filled up with the same beverage as your glass contains.

So, your friend finishes his drink, but before the waitress can return (all of the waitressess are english speaking, and no one other than you can speak or even knows, your friends language), a strong wind blows the note off your drink, so the waitress will be unable to refill the empty glass with the same beverage, as she has no note telling her to do so, and without being able to communicate with the friend who doesnt speak english, she cannot determine what to put into his empty glass, so the glass will remain empty without a reference to fill it.

The only problem with this analogy is that my foreign friend's glass, or even my friend him/herself, would immediately disappear, which is rather worrying.

 

[Tkwiget]

When Dark Panther's outstanding effect resolves in the End Phase and changes back to normal, there no longer is a face up Victory Viper XX03 on the field. This means the Victory Viper that Special Summoned the Option Token has left the field. This also means that all Option Tokens that were Special Summoned via Dark Panther's copying effect would be removed from the field.

I really don't see what the confusion is about this scenario. It seems pretty crystal clear IMO, but that could just be me afterall. =/

 

[Digital Jedi]

It would be clear, but who says the card that summoned them has to remain named Victory Viper XX03 in order for the effect to keep working? Does Jinzo have to remain being named Jinzo for his effect to continue working? Would Spirit Reaper suddenly become battle prone if his named were changed by an effect? Obviously, we have no effects that execute a name change, but it's a good question ask. After all, Victory Viper XX03 never actually leaves the field, no matter how you rationalize why the token stays or doesn't stay. Victory Viper XX03 just changes his name to to Neo-Spacian Dark Panther. If the effect were Continuous, then I would understand why it doesn't stay. But the effect is lingering. That changes things.

 

[masterwoo0]

What reasoning can we use to indicate that "this card" is referring to Victory Viper XX03 and not just "this monster card"? Where do we know for sure that the effects isn't a lingering effect that it looks for the card name, and not just for the card that generated it?

The reasoning is, Dark Panther became Vixtory Viper in name as well as effect. The only thing it didnt copy was the stats.

The Option Token isnt looking for anything. It simply exist. Vistory Viper is the effect that reacts just like Call of the Haunted. When it leaves the field, so does the monster it targets. Victory Viper calls the shots. If he changes his stats, he changes the Option Token's as well. It's like instructions to a game. In order to play it correctly, you have to know all the rules. The Token doesnt have any rules. Victory Viper does, and he dictates what happens, since he is "This Card".

Dark Panther doesnt have any rules for Victory Viper once he changes back. He only has "his rules", which say he can copy a cards effect, which, at the moment, is only his original effect. There's no need for precedence, as there is nothing new going on here.

Victory Viper XX03 just changes his name to to Neo-Spacian Dark Panther. If the effect were Continuous, then I would understand why it doesn't stay. But the effect is lingering. That changes things.

That would be different if it were wholly true. But it isnt. Victory Viper doesnt change its name to Dark Panther. It IS Dark Panther!!!

When Dark Panther's effect wears off, it goes back to its original effect. If it ONLY changed the name, that would be different. Coke doesnt stop being Coke cause you call it Pepsi. But Coke will never be Pepsi, even if you change the name on the can.

You are trying to say that because you changed the name from Victory Viper to Dark Panther, it should still retain Victory Viper's effect, which it can't, because it is NOT originally Victory Viper at all.

 

[Digital Jedi]

We posted at the same time, but read my last one. Victory Viper XX03 never leaves the field. It's simply changes it's name to something else. Victory Viper XX03's 3rd effect is also not a Continuous Effect, but lingering. So why would a name change affect the tokens at all.

 

[masterwoo0]

Read above.........

 

[Digital Jedi]

That would be different if it were wholly true. But it is. Victory Viper doesnt change its name to Dark Panther. It IS Dark Panther!!!

When Dark Panther's effect wears off, it goes back to its original effect. If it ONLY changed the name, that would be different. Coke doesnt stop being Coke cause you call it Pepsi. But Coke will never be Pepsi, even if you change the name on the can.

You are trying to say that because you changed the name from Victory Viper to Dark Panther, it should still retain Victory Viper's effect, which it can't, because it is NOT originally Victory Viper at all.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that the effect isn't necessarily dependant on the name of the card that generated it. Just the existence of the card that generated it.

The way you pose it, it would need to be a Continuous Effect. In other words, the tokens would need to be Continuously maintained by an active effect. But VV is a Trigger Effect that activates, summons tokens, and places a condition upon them to keep an eye on the card that created them. This would mean that even Skill Drain wouldn't have an effect on the tokens, because the effect is a lingering condition placed upon them by another card. What in the rulings says one way or the other that the card must have the same name and same effect from when it triggered? About the only thing I see it needs to maintain is that it needs to remain a Monster Card.

 

[masterwoo0]

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that the effect isn't necessarily dependant on the name of the card that generated it. Just the existence of the card that generated it.

The way you pose it, it would need to be a Continuous Effect. In other words, the tokens would need to be Continuously maintained by an active effect. But VV is a Trigger Effect that activates, summons tokens, and places a condition upon them to keep an eye on the card that created them. This would mean that even Skill Drain wouldn't have an effect on the tokens, because the effect is a lingering condition placed upon them by another card. What in the rulings says one way or the other that the card must have the same name and same effect from when it triggered? About the only thing I see it needs to maintain is that it needs to remain a Monster Card.

Victory Viper places a condition on the Token, but only that it will be the same stats as VV, and not that the Token itself monitors that. Victory Viper controls when the Token changes, based upon when "it" changes. If Victory Viper increases its ATK, it also reflects that increase upon the Option Token. Victory Viper doesnt exist because of the Token, the Token exist because of Victory Viper, and Viper only. This card, "which was Victory Viper" created the Token. This card, "which is no longer Victory Viper", can no longer maintain the conditions of the Token existing on the field, as that is no longer part of "this cards" effect.

If Skill Drain can turn Proto-Cyber Dragon from Cyber Dragon back to Proto-Cyber Dragon, why shouldnt it still be considered to be Cyber Dragon since it was considered Cyber Dragon prior to being turned into Proto-Cyber Dragon?!!

Because it is no longer Cyber Dragon by name, nor by effect, so it cannot be used for any effect or Cost that would require removing a monster named Cyber Dragon.

Same condition would apply for an effect requiring there to be a Victory Viper on the field. If Victory Viper was changed into a Equip Spell Card by the effect of Relinquished, Sword Hunter, or, Thousand-Eyes Restrict, it would still be "this card" since this card hasnt left the field, but now it no longer has an effect, so would it cause the Option Token to disappear, or would the Option Token be 0/0 ATK/DEF, or, would it maintain the same printed stats?

Obviously, the ruling points this out very specifically.

If "Victory Viper XX03" leaves the field or is flipped face-down, all of its Option Tokens disappear. (Note that they are not "destroyed".)

Notice how the ruling doesnt say, "If this card leaves the field". It clearly states in quotations, that If "Victory Viper XX03" leaves the field.....

That to me leaves no doubt what "this card" is referring to in the effect. Especially since you can't use Power Capsule on Dark Panther, unless he is actually using his effect to imitate Viper.