Dark Neo-Victory Panther Spacian Viper XX03

[Digital Jedi]

Here's a bizarre question.

Suppose Victory Viper XX03 is copied by Neo-Spacian Dark Panther. You use the third effect to Special Summon an Option Token. When the end of the turn comes, what happens to the option token?

I know what I'm thinking, but I'll let you all chime in first. (Take that Official Judges List)

 

[Digital Jedi]

But again, that implies that the 3rd effect is a Continuous Effect. How do you rationalize that logic with the fact that it's a Trigger Effect?

Also, the rulings would only say "Victory Viper XX03" and not "this card". How else would we know which card the ruling was talking about (or facilitate the "RE:" function in Netrepâ„¢?) That's not speaking to this scenario at all. That's the way all the rulings are phrased, so as to be specific.

And I stated in my last post, the only thing the token would probably require is that it's generator remain a monster card. Even using my logic, that would be necessary in order to copy the stats of the monster.

 

[masterwoo0]

How else would we know which card the ruling was talking about (or facilitate the "RE:" function in Netrepâ„¢?)

And there you have it, your own logic used against you.

How else do we know what "this card" is referring to, when it is only contained on this "one card"? In order to say that "this card" can be any card, we make Victory Viper's effect even more ambiguous instead of defining what "this card" is. Why wouldnt a face-down Victory Viper be considered "this card"? It doesnt have a name, so "this card" applies to all cards that exist on the field, face-up or face-down, re: Demise, King of Armageddon.

So, using your logic once again, if we use Dark Panther on Demise, and Dark Panther is flipped face-down, which would happen?

1. Dark Panther's effect resets and he is no longer Demise

2. Dark Panther is no longer Demise, so he is destroyed, since he is no longer "this card"

3. Dark Panther's effect, as well as Demise, would disappear, and nothing would be destroyed

 

[densetsu_x]

Bringing in Demise is going to really bring this off-topic since the rulings on his effect are not consistant especially when compared to Levia-Dragon (both of whom have the exact same text for their effects):

"... destroy all cards on the field except this card"

"¢ If an effect is chained to "Demise's" effect to flip "Demise, King of Armageddon" face-down, he is still not destroyed by his effect.

But, under Levia-Dragon - Daedalus:
"¢ When "Book of Moon" is chained to "Levia-Dragon Daedalus"' effect to flip it face-down, the effect still resolves, but "Levia-Dragon Daedalus" is destroyed by its own effect, since it's no longer "this card", it's just "a card".

Not to open a can of worms or anything.

 

[masterwoo0]

But, under Levia-Dragon - Daedalus:
"¢ When "Book of Moon" is chained to "Levia-Dragon Daedalus"' effect to flip it face-down, the effect still resolves, but "Levia-Dragon Daedalus" is destroyed by its own effect, since it's no longer "this card", it's just "a card".

Not to open a can of worms or anything.

...And there it is in bold black. I knew somehow I could bring that out.

 

[densetsu_x]

That wasn't the point though. You have 2 cards, Demise and Levia-Dragon that both have the same net effect (just different costs), but the official ruling for 1 is that if it's flipped face down it's destroyed but for the other it isn't. That's the issue I was trying to bring up since 1 directly conflicts the other.

 

[Digital Jedi]

I think your more caught up in the use of the words "this card" then I am, Woo0. My reasoning is more in line with the effect then it has been with anything else. I was merely addressing your comment on the rulings. But my main concern is the way the effect functions. If we apply your logic, we again are presented with the mechanics of a Continuous Effect. Are you saying the effect is continuous or not?

 

[slither]

Ok, im not sure if I am the one who got confused, or if the logic of "this card" is not relevant in any way, since I can't see anywhere either in Victory's text or the ruling that says anything about "this card", besides the initial activation, and the attributes and such, which would be totally irrelevant to the Option Token at all:

When this card destroys an opponent's monster as a result of battle, select and activate 1 of the following effects:
- Increase the ATK of this card by 400 points.
- Destroy 1 face-up Spell or Trap Card on the field.
- Special Summon 1 "Option Token" to your side of the field. It always has the same Type, Attribute, Level, ATK and DEF as this card.

If "Victory Viper XX03" leaves the field or is flipped face-down, all of its Option Tokens disappear. (Note that they are not "destroyed".)

It speaks of Victory Viper XX03 not this card, not that card, not a card, Victory Dragon as a name, just like Proto Cyber-Dragon, Harpies Lady 1,2,3, etc.

I think the easier conflict would be: "What about my opponent's Victory Dragon?", which by MY understanding, if my opponent's VDragon was still on the field the Option Tokens will remain on the field, but as soon as there is no VDragon on the field all tokens would dissapear.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Well, no they wont. We have a message on the Judges List already stating that the tokens are connected to the card that generated them, regardless if another Victory Viper is on the field.

I hate to do this, since "this card" is not really what I'm going on about. But:

Special Summon 1 "Option Token" to your side of the field. It always has the same Type, Attribute, Level, ATK and DEF as this card.​

 

[slither]

Well, no they wont. We have a message on the Judges List already stating that the tokens are connected to the card that generated them, regardless if another Victory Viper is on the field.

Ah ok, I haven't read the list in a bit, but ok it makes sense.

I hate to do this, since "this card" is not really what I'm going on about. But:

Special Summon 1 "Option Token" to your side of the field. It always has the same Type, Attribute, Level, ATK and DEF as this card.​

But I still have to be pesky about that particular piece of text since the rules make no mention about "this card" but Victory Dragon.

The "this card" text, IMPO just involves a declaration of where it has been extracted from, like: "while this card is face-up on the field", "when this card is sent to the grave", "when this card is special summoned", etc. It's just an initial reference.

 

[densetsu_x]

1) Victory Viper. Victory Dragon isn't out just yet and has a whole different effect.

2) DJ: the "this card" you keep referring to is the effect of Victory Viper in order to create the token. The ruling however is based upon the Token's state of existance, namely that if the Victory Viper that created the token is no longer on the field, then it blinks out of existance. So even if the Token's stats are still the same as the Dark Panther when the Dark Panther's effect wears off, the Token suddenly notices there's no more Victory Viper, so it runs off the field in order to find what happened to his Gradius Wanna-Be.

 

[Maruno]

1) Victory Viper. Victory Dragon isn't out just yet and has a whole different effect.

Hehe. That was really confusing me.

2) DJ: the "this card" you keep referring to is the effect of Victory Viper in order to create the token. The ruling however is based upon the Token's state of existance, namely that if the Victory Viper that created the token is no longer on the field, then it blinks out of existance. So even if the Token's stats are still the same as the Dark Panther when the Dark Panther's effect wears off, the Token suddenly notices there's no more Victory Viper, so it runs off the field in order to find what happened to his Gradius Wanna-Be.

We can change ATK and DEF. We can change Type and Attribute. We can change Level. It doesn't turn the monster into a different one (technically a 3000 ATK Dark Magician is not a proper Dark Magician, since the proper Dark Magician has 2500 ATK). So why should changing the name of a card turn it into a completely different card?

My view is that it shouldn't. A name is just another part of the stats, after all. Note that Neo-Spacian Dark Panther says "this card's name is treated as the selected monster's name", and NOT "this card's name BECOMES the selected card's name".

Also, Option Token should have its own condition placed on it that sorts out its stats. It shouldn't be dependant upon the effect of another card. Ojama Token isn't. It'll inflict the damage regardless of where Ojama Trio is at said time.

Basically, as long as Option Token remains on the field, it's copying most of the stats of "this card", which turns into "that (piece of) card" in its condition upon its Special Summon. There isn't even a stipulation as when to destroy Option Token, since once "that card" leaves the face-up field scene, Option Token will be face-up with unspecified stats, and will destroy itself by game mechanic (no face-up monster has undetermined stats).




The main point we have to resolve here is whether Option Token gains a condition for itself to check and copy the stats of another card (which wouldn't matter if the other card changes its name, because that's a stat in itself and one Option Token is uninterested in), or whether Victory Viper XX03 continuously updates Option Token's stats for it with its effect (implying the effect should be continuous).


I'm in favour of the condition argument, meaning Option Token doesn't care about a name change.

 

[densetsu_x]

Except according to the ruling, the token is looking for Victory Viper. So when Dark Panther's effect ends, you no longer have a card named "Victory VIper" on your side of the field.

 

[masterwoo0]

I'm in favour of the condition argument, meaning Option Token doesn't care about a name change.

It's not about a Name Change. It's about "effect change". There is no card on the field that supports a Option Token existing, once Dark Panther reverts from being Victory Viper. Even if it kept the name "Panther" while copying the effect of Viper, it would still be the fact that it no longer is the same effect that it had when it created the Token.

We also know that "Treated as" has been more related to it actually being the "Same as".

 

[Maruno]

If the Option Token gains a condition that sets its stats based on another card, there doesn't NEED to be a card allowing the existence of Option Token. It's just a regular Monster Token.

 

[densetsu_x]

Again:

"¢ If "Victory Viper XX03" leaves the field or is flipped face-down, all of its Option Tokens disappear. (Note that they are not "destroyed".)

There's the condition spelled out. There really isn't much more to say about it.

 

[Maruno]

Yes, they disappear because they would then have undetermined stats, which a face-up monster is not allowed to have, so they disappear by aforementioned game mechanic. I've said this already.

Note, actually, that it's a rule of the game that makes the Option Tokens disappear, and NOT a condition. The only condition is the stats-altering one, which you completely failed to mention.

 

[densetsu_x]

There's no real reason to mention it. If Dark Panther has Victory Viper's effect and it makes an Option Token, the token has the stats of the Dark Panther card. After all, there's many things that can change the base stats/attributes of Victory Viper so it's not an issue. Then when the Dark Panther's effect ends, so does the token.

 

[Maruno]

So you're saying the effect of Victory Viper XX03 constantly determines the stats of Option Token, and not a condition placed on Option Token upon Special Summon?

If so, then yes, Option Token would disappear by game mechanic once Dark Panther lost that effect.

 

[Tkwiget]

Yes, they disappear because they would then have undetermined stats, which a face-up monster is not allowed to have, so they disappear by aforementioned game mechanic. I've said this already.

Note, actually, that it's a rule of the game that makes the Option Tokens disappear, and NOT a condition. The only condition is the stats-altering one, which you completely failed to mention.

And yet I can Normal Summon King of the Skull Servants and have a "?/0" stat monster.

I can Normal Summon Gren Maju Da Eiza and have a "?/?" stat monster. "?" for a stat is undetermined as you put it and we know for a fact we can have those monsters face up on the field.

The better reason for why the Option Tokens disappear would be because the effect of Dark Panther resolves at the End Phase and no longer holds the Victory Viper effect. Thus the ruling Victory Viper has with its Option Tokens.

If "Victory Viper XX03" leaves the field or is flipped face-down, all of its Option Tokens disappear. (Note that they are not "destroyed".)

When Dark Panther resolves in the End Phase and the Victory Viper effect disappears, it's like saying a Victory Viper left the field. Which then follows that ruling.

That's more of a better reason why the Option Tokens disappear. =)

 

[Digital Jedi]

I'm just a little concerned with the fact everyone is still stuck on the "this card" issue, when that isn't even the issue I've raised at all. And several times I've stated that that's not where the source of my logic lies.

Several times I've also asked for the reasoning on how the Option Token's existence can now be dependant on the effect of the Monster Card that generated it, when that would need to be a Continuous Effect to accomplish this task. Yet it seems each time I brig it up, someone goes back to the "this card" doesn't mean that argument and bypasses my main question completely. Am I just being ignored now? :cog_huh