Dark Neo-Victory Panther Spacian Viper XX03

[Digital Jedi]

Here's a bizarre question.

Suppose Victory Viper XX03 is copied by Neo-Spacian Dark Panther. You use the third effect to Special Summon an Option Token. When the end of the turn comes, what happens to the option token?

I know what I'm thinking, but I'll let you all chime in first. (Take that Official Judges List)

 

[Tkwiget]

I haven't used that "this card" explaination.

Dark Panther's effect copies idenity and effect of a monster that it targets. The whole "Special Summon 1 "Option Token" to your side of the field. It always has the same Type, Attribute, Level, ATK and DEF as this card." effect of Victory Viper is an effect that creates a lingering effect/condition (apparently I don't see the difference of the two) on any Option Tokens that are summoned. This lingering effect or condition is that the Option Token mirrors the stats of the Victory Viper that summoned it. Dark Panther has the idenity of that Victory Viper. Any Option Tokens special summoned from it will have automatically meet this portion of the effect: It always has the same Type, Attribute, Level, ATK and DEF as this card.

This whole "this card" arguement is ridculous. "this card" obviously is implying the card that the card text is printed on; which is that copy of Victory Viper.


Now to answer your question directly Digital Jedi, it's because Victory Viper gets its effect reset when flipped face down and the effect is removed from the field when it leaves the field. "Special Summon 1 "Option Token" to your side of the field." is the actual effect that's being triggered in this effect of Victory Viper. "It always has the same Type, Attribute, Level, ATK and DEF as this card." is the continuous effect applied to the Option Token after it's Special Summoned.

That's how I see it.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Well, I appreciate you answering it directly. :cog_smile

Now the difference I see with a Continuous Effect and a lingering condition, is that one can be negated while the other cannot. If its a condition placed on the tokens or even on Victory Viper, there's no way Skill Drain could negate it. But more importantly, there's no precedent to say that a name change would have any effect on it.

What I'm saying is, there's no concrete proof one way or the other. It could go either way. You can point to the rulings and say that because they use the name in the rulings, that the effect is wholly dependant on the name. But all rulings are written using the name of the card their talking about so that they no what ruling goes where. It's was not written to clarify the very obscure instance of a card name changing. Certainly not to signify that a card changing name is akin to the card leaving the field.

 

[Tkwiget]

If Skill Drain is active, it will negate Dark Panther. It no longer is considered to be Victory Viper and this acts like the Victory Viper that summoned the Option Tokens has left the field.

I should clarify what I meant cause I worded it badly.

"Special Summon 1 "Option Token" to your side of the field."
This is the initial Trigger Effect of the effect.

"It always has the same Type, Attribute, Level, ATK and DEF as this card."
This is a Continuous Effect placed on the Option Token that Victory Viper places on it. This effect can be negated.

I shouldn't have said lingering effect or condition. =/

Skill Drain will negate Victory Viper and Dark Panther completely. Dark Panther changing its name to Victory Viper XX03 and then back to Dark Panther is equal to a Victory Viper leaving the field that holds an effect on the field.

I wish I could download my brain into yours...@_@ It would make it so much easier to explain.

 

[Fury]

I see the effect of Victory Viper as follows:

- It creates the token (which is a Normal Moster Card as we know, and has no effects at all).
- Then it places the lingering effect on the token which has the following parameters:

• This effect targets 1 face-up monster card. It targets the card that created this token. (IMO the name of the target is irrelevant for this - or more precisedly not included in the target parameters.)
• It has a continuous effect that copies the stats of the targeted card.
• Also if the target becomes illegal, this token disappears.

So I think even after Dark Panther gets its original name and effect back, it is still a valid target for the lingering effects of the tokens it created.

 

[Digital Jedi]

If Skill Drain is active, it will negate Dark Panther. It no longer is considered to be Victory Viper and this acts like the Victory Viper that summoned the Option Tokens has left the field.

I should clarify what I meant cause I worded it badly.

"Special Summon 1 "Option Token" to your side of the field."
This is the initial Trigger Effect of the effect.

"It always has the same Type, Attribute, Level, ATK and DEF as this card."
This is a Continuous Effect placed on the Option Token that Victory Viper places on it. This effect can be negated.

I shouldn't have said lingering effect or condition. =/

Skill Drain will negate Victory Viper and Dark Panther completely. Dark Panther changing its name to Victory Viper XX03 and then back to Dark Panther is equal to a Victory Viper leaving the field that holds an effect on the field.

I wish I could download my brain into yours...@_@ It would make it so much easier to explain.

Yeah, it appears we're going in circles now. =/ Maybe we should wait for someone fresh to the discussion to chime in. So far we've made the same points and counter points to each other and not really ventured into new territory.

I get what your saying. I just don't see where in the rulings that the connection HAS to be a Continuous Effect. The effect still works the way the rulings say it does if it's a condition. I would be more sold on it being a Continuous Effect if it used the standard Continuous Effect Monster wording like "as long as this card is face-up on the field" or similar.

At the core of this is finding out for certain what the connection is. Because I doubt I would be the only one inclined to think it's not necessarily an active effect, but a lingering one.

EIDT: See? I'm not the only one.

 

[Fury]

"It always has the same Type, Attribute, Level, ATK and DEF as this card."
This is a Continuous Effect placed on the Option Token that Victory Viper places on it. This effect can be negated.

I hope you are not saying that VV gives an effect directly to the token because that would mean it is not a Normal Moster Card anymore but an effect monster (for Ceasefire, etc.).

If not then you should clarify what "This effect can be nagated." means.

 

[Digital Jedi]

He means that VV's effect is Continuous.

 

[Fury]

So VV has 1 (or more) continuous effect(s) that target(s) the token(s) it created and VV applies the stats to it/them?

I dont say it's impossible but the text doesnt suggests that.

Also if Skill Drain would negate this effect then what stats would the tokens it generated have?

EDIT: Oh, and he said "This is a Continuous Effect placed on the Option Token", so he didnt say that it is the effect of VV. He said placed on them.

 

[Digital Jedi]

But he did say he didn't phrase that part the way he meant it. But I feel that the effect could go either way. Though I'm more strongly leaning towards the notion that the effects are lingering conditions placed either on VV or on the tokens.

 

[Tkwiget]

It isn't a lingering effect or condition. It's a continuous effect that's established between the Victory Viper and the Option Token.

Victory Viper's initial Monster Effect is a Trigger Effect.

"When this card destroys an opponent's monster as a result of battle, select and activate 1 of the following effects:
- Increase the ATK of this card by 400 points.
- Destroy 1 face-up Spell or Trap Card on the field.
- Special Summon 1 "Option Token" to your side of the field. It always has the same Type, Attribute, Level, ATK and DEF as this card."

The first bolded section of its card text explains to you when the Trigger Effect actually triggers and opens up the menu of effect options.

The second bolded section is the initial effect that's being selected to be triggered -- activated in this case.

The underlined portion is a Continuous Effect that's linked between the Victory Viper and any Option Tokens it summoned from its first part of the card text of that effect option.

Hopefully that better explains what I was getting at. I'm glad that you're kind of understanding what I'm getting at Digital Jedi because you know I have trouble explaining what I mean most of the time. =/

 

[Fury]

The underlined portion is a Continuous Effect that's linked between the Victory Viper and any Option Tokens it summoned from its first part of the card text of that effect option.

That's ok, but I think the question is where is this continuous effect?

I said that is is lingering.

You say that it is not lingering, instead it is on the Victory Viper.
In this case it can be negated by Skill Drain. But, if that happens then according to you what would happen to the tokens?
The effect centainly cant destroy them beacuse it is negated by Skill Drain. So what happens?
If they stay what stats do they have?

I understand your point but you should fill in these gaps to make it more 'complete'.

 

[Tkwiget]

You made an excellent point. If a Continuous Effect is being negated by Skill Drain (example would be Spell Canceller or Jinzo) then the effect would be reset after Skill Drain is removed.

Lol, your excellent point pretty much destroyed my "Continuous Effect linked between the two monsters" arguement. I don't believe that it's a condition or lingering effect of any kind. I feel that it's part of the Trigger Effect of that effect rather than anything else. My new opinion (which obviously has changed since you proved my old one horribly wrong) would have to be a mere brief informative piece of instructions on what the token is going to have for stats, level, type, attribute, etc.

It reminds me of cards like, Scapegoat, Ojama Trio, Cobra Jar, Physical Double, etc.

If a copy of Skill Drain is active on the field and a Victory Viper is face up and has summoned one or more Option Tokens, I don't believe (more like feel) that the Option Tokens would disappear.

However, if Dark Panther copies Victory Viper and summons an Option Token and then a Skill Drain becomes active, I would say that Dark Panther's effect would be negated and no longer be considered a Victory Viper.

 

[Maruno]

Putting a condition on a monster does not equal making that monster an Effect Monster. Ojama Trio, Cobra Jar, etc. are good examples of this. The Tokens are still Normal Monsters. They just have conditions on them.

When Option Token is Special Summoned, Vic Viper places a condition on it. But rather than say "This Token cannot be Tributed for a Tribute Summon", the condition says "See that card over there? You get its stats". Aside from the different meaning of the condition, there is no difference between Vic Viper and, say, Scapegoat.



Please not that there is NO condition that says "make this card disappear when target is lost". There's no such thing. Don't get hung up on this fact. This is because, while ATK and DEF can be treated as 0 when undefined (e.g. ATK and/or DEF of ?) (Skill Drained Maju Garzett, for example), the Type, Attribute and Level don't have default settings for monsters that don't have them. And monsters MUST have Type, Attribute and Level while face-up on the field. That's a game rule. Any monster found without a Type, Attribute or Level (so far, only Option Token can manage this) is an illegal monster, and is sent to the Graveyard immediately (not destroyed, and Option Token simply disappears from the game anyway).

Don't get hung up on this point.



All that matters at the moment is whether Option Token gains a "copy stats" condition placed on it upon activation, so it no longer matters whether the effect that generated it is there, or whether Vic Viper is constantly generating the stats for Option Token.

I believe it's the first option, the condition. It makes so much more sense, and in my mind there's no reasoning behind the other point of view (it's not worded as if it were a continuous effect, etc.). The ruling simply has to be updated, and once it is we'll see a changing name is irrelevant.

Besides, even if it is relevant, the name change of Vic Viper back to Dark Panther would NOT be treated as a Vic Viper leaving the field. Why would it be? It didn't leave the field; a card simply stopped being treated as Vic Viper. The card itself didn't leave the field, and card names alone cannot be removed from the field.

 

[Fury]

To Tkwiget:
Well... I thought that officially Scapegoat and such put a condition on the tokens they create to prevent them from being used as tribute for a tribute summon or set.

I see this condition term as a kind of container that can hold continuous effects. So the non-tribute effect of the goat tokens is also a continuous effect that is packed into a condition and put on the goat. Since the effect in not directly added to the goat it is not considered as the card's effect and therefor it remains a normal monster card, and also the effect cant be negated by anything.

I dont think that the Option tokens are an exception among the tokens that's why I think they work the same way.

So my explanation is that you pack that continuous effect into a condition and place it onto the Option tokens when they are created like every other token with 'effects'.

But to address the question about Dark Panther, I think (as I wrote earlier) that this continuous effect in the condition on the tokens (which targets) only checks if the target is a 'face-up monster card' and doesnt care about the name (or the effect) of the target.
I see no other link between the tokens and VV so I dont think
they would disappear when Dark Panther regains is original effect (a new term?).

EDIT:
To Maruno: A monster card DOESNT have to have an attribute or type or star level - see Magical Hats.

When Option Token is Special Summoned, Vic Viper places a condition on it. But rather than say "This Token cannot be Tributed for a Tribute Summon", the condition says "See that card over there? You get its stats". Aside from the different meaning of the condition, there is no difference between Vic Viper and, say, Scapegoat.

Exactly my point and your explanation is short and simple.

Please not that there is NO condition that says "make this card disappear when target is lost". There's no such thing.

But I dont agree with this.
1. Magical Hats about the stats.
2. It is not impossible to have such an effect.
3. What difference does it make what let them disappear?

 

[Digital Jedi]

Please not that there is NO condition that says "make this card disappear when target is lost". There's no such thing. Don't get hung up on this fact. This is because, while ATK and DEF can be treated as 0 when undefined (e.g. ATK and/or DEF of ?) (Skill Drained Maju Garzett, for example), the Type, Attribute and Level don't have default settings for monsters that don't have them. And monsters MUST have Type, Attribute and Level while face-up on the field. That's a game rule. Any monster found without a Type, Attribute or Level (so far, only Option Token can manage this) is an illegal monster, and is sent to the Graveyard immediately (not destroyed, and Option Token simply disappears from the game anyway).

Don't get hung up on this point.

Well, while I don't want to get hung up on that point, that isn't necessarily true. Remember Magical Hats? It makes two Spell or Trap Cards into Monsters until the end of the Battle Phase. Those two monsters have no Attribute, Type or Star Level. Only ATK/DEF stats.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Again:

"¢ If "Victory Viper XX03" leaves the field or is flipped face-down, all of its Option Tokens disappear. (Note that they are not "destroyed".)

There's the condition spelled out. There really isn't much more to say about it.

Except according to the ruling, the token is looking for Victory Viper. So when Dark Panther's effect ends, you no longer have a card named "Victory VIper" on your side of the field.

The ruling does not say that the token is looking for Vic Viper anymore than an Equip Card that has a ruling mentioning Dark Magician can only target dark magician.

You cannot assert that the ruling is using Vic Viper XX03 as anything more than an example.

We know that if a different Vic VIper leaves the field the tokens are not destroyed, therefore there has to be something more than the name determining which tokens belong to which monster. Then once we have that, we don't need the name anymore.

But if you want to take that ruling to be uber-precise, then you have to also look at the word "leave". You don't have any precedent to suggest that changing a name is consider "leaving" the field.

If Vic Viper XX03 left the field, then by definition, it would have to be somewhere 'away' from the field.

Vic Viper XX03 is not anywhere away from the field.

Therefore Vic Viper XX03 did not leave the field.

There's nothing stopping Konami from declaring that the name matters, or that Option Tokens and Gradius Option are exceptions to the rule (and other cards will not be affected by name changes) but until then, we do not add anymore entities than necessary, we do not have any precedent to suggest that the name matters, therefore we make the base assumption that it doesn't until proven otherwise.

 

[Tkwiget]

You make good points. However, I might have a good point to share as well.

Once per turn, you can select 1 face-up monster on your opponent's side of the field. While this card is face-up on your side of the field, until the end of this turn this card's name is treated as the selected monster's name, and it gets the selected monster's effect(s).

This card's name is treated as "Cyber Dragon" while it is face-up on the field.

Both of these cards have something in common: they both require to be face up in order for them to maintain their name change.

If "Skill Drain" is active, this card is no longer treated as "Cyber Dragon". You could not use it for "Attack Reflector Unit", etc.

This supports my opinion with Dark Panther being negated by Skill Drain after it summoned one or more Option Tokens. If the Victory Viper disappears from the field, the Option Token(s) have no reference to draw off of. Dark Panther's effect changes its idenity. There isn't a condition being created. There is no continous effect being used. An Option Token needs a point of reference and that point of reference has to be a face up Victory Viper XX03 on the field.

That's how I see the ruling. That's how I understand the way the cards in question function and it's how I'm going to rule on it. Still an interesting discussion. =)

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Equip cards also require a referenced monster:

So Dark Panther changes name to "Gemini Elf".
Equip that Gemini Elf with "Mage Power"

End phase, Gemini Elf becaomes Dark Panther, therefore Mage Power loses its target and is now destroyed by game mechanics?

Or Equip (proto-)Cyber Dragon with Mage power.
Activate skill drain. Cyber Dragon is now proto-cyber dragon, therefore Mage Power loses its target and is destroyed?

 

[Tkwiget]

Mage Power's reference isn't the same as an Option Token's reference. Mage Power simply requires that its target be a monster of some kind. Option Token needs reference to a Victory Viper XX03 in order to mirror the stats of the monster. If Dark Panther's effect is being negated by Skill Drain, it no longer has any effect that can connect it to the token. Which is why I believe that the name changing Dark Panther to Victory Viper XX03 and then back to Dark Panther is an equivlent to removing Victory Viper XX03 from the field; which is the only card that its Option Tokens can use as a point of reference for their mirrored information.

It's just how I see it. I'm horrible at explaining things like this to others. I do hope you at least get the gest of what I'm trying to explain. @_@

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

It's just how I see it. I'm horrible at explaining things like this to others. I do hope you at least get the gest of what I'm trying to explain. @_@

Yes, i get it.

But:

Oxxam's Razor, never multiply entities except when neccessary, at first it looks even:

A) Option Tokens only reference Victory Viper XX03
or
B) Option Tokens only reference the card that generate them.


However:
http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=10368
Q If a player has 2 Vipers on the field (A and B), and A has generated 2 tokens and B none, if B is removed or turned face-down, are the tokens A generated affected?

A They are not affected. The Option Tokens created by the effect of "Victory Viper XX03" 'A' have no connection to 'B'.

So A) is not good enough,

It has to be:

A) 1- Option Tokens reference only Vic Viper XX03
and 2- Option Tokens only reference the card that generated them.

B) 1- Option Tokens reference the card that generated them.


So since "B)" is the simpler answer, it becomes a burden of proof to show that A is true. But "B" becomes the default assumption.

Since we don't have proof either way, then "B" is the correct answer for the time being.

• 
  Of course, Gradius' Option was always sort of a "gimmick" card. ANd we might expect to get a ruling on Option Tokens based simply on the creator's imagination. (Fighter Jets have options, not panthers. i.e. Only Gradius and VVXX03 can have options, Dark Panther can't have options {but perhaps if there were some way to activate Dark Panther's effect a 2nd time, and target Gradius, it could still get the option tokens because Gradius can have "options"})