Dark Neo-Victory Panther Spacian Viper XX03

[Digital Jedi]

Here's a bizarre question.

Suppose Victory Viper XX03 is copied by Neo-Spacian Dark Panther. You use the third effect to Special Summon an Option Token. When the end of the turn comes, what happens to the option token?

I know what I'm thinking, but I'll let you all chime in first. (Take that Official Judges List)

 

[Maruno]

Option Token needs reference to a Victory Viper XX03 in order to mirror the stats of the monster. If Dark Panther's effect is being negated by Skill Drain, it no longer has any effect that can connect it to the token. Which is why I believe that the name changing Dark Panther to Victory Viper XX03 and then back to Dark Panther is an equivlent to removing Victory Viper XX03 from the field; which is the only card that its Option Tokens can use as a point of reference for their mirrored information.

I get the gist, but I don't agree with it. There's no reason to presume that Option Token does NOT get a condition saying "copy his stats" that points to a face-up monster.

Quite simply, we don't know about this. There's never been anything like this before. I hope someone's already asked about this.



And yes, I forgot about Magical Hats. Oddball card, harking back from the first Yu-Gi-Oh! season (they were all crazy cards back then). Well, in that case I don't know. It's possible Option Token could become a (0/0) monster with no Attribute/Type/Level once its target leaves, but it clearly doesn't. We have to explain this away.

But even so, it's NOT a part of the condition placed on Option Token. Only a ruling says that once the target leaves, Option Token disappears (is NOT destroyed). Vic Viper doesn't say that. I can't explain this now, unless Magical Hats is an exception.

Ah! Maybe I can! Option Token must have an Attribute/Type/Level, because when it was Special Summoned Vic Viper said it did have them. Magical Hats only specifies 2 stat "slots": ATK and DEF, and that's all they're restricted to (i.e. they couldn't gain extra stats from DNA Surgery/DNA Transplant). But since Option Token is given extra stat "slots" (the normal number of "slots"), those "slots" MUST be filled at all times for it to be legal. If one becomes undetermined while on the field, it becomes illegal, and this is what happens when the target of Option Token's condition leaves the face-up field.

 

[Tkwiget]

What you claim the default assumption to be is merely opinion. You need just as much proof to prove either of the two possiblities are true. So "B" is not necessarily the correct answer just as much as "A" is.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

What you claim the default assumption to be is merely opinion. You need just as much proof to prove either of the two possiblities are true. So "B" is not necessarily the correct answer just as much as "A" is.

It would be an opinion to say "B" would always be correct because it is simpler.

It would be an opinion to say that don't go to the judge's list because we already have answer "B".

However, the key is "for the time being," that is, we can't wait for an answer if the situation comes up, so when an answer is needed then we have to go for the simpler answer. And that is the correct way to rule it in a duel, even if it doesn't end up being the correct answer in game mechanics.

Note:
Occam's Razor can also be interpreted as meaning "Don't look for the simpler answer unless an answer is necessary" (i.e. 0 assumptions is less than 1 )

 

[Tkwiget]

Where the two of us stand on this are different. I've already established where I'm on this and people can read it. So I'm moving onto something that actually holds a purpose to me.

 

[Digital Jedi]

So I guess we have no consensus on this? Do we all agere that it's a condition placed either Viper or the token? Or are we still split on it being that or a Continuous Effect?

 

[Maruno]

Apparently we're still divided. People have asked the list, right?

 

[OKShadow]

If Skill Drain negates effects saying "This card's name is treated as..." What about the diverse line of Harpies? Would it then be impossible to use Elegant Egotist since techincally no "Harpie Lady" exists on the field (unless you actually use the non-effect version when there are 3 effect versions with the same stats)? Just throwing another wrench into the "proto-cyber"/"dark pan-viper xx03-ther" argument

Still ultimately, there is only one way to solve this... get the final answer from the almighty :bkss

 

[masterwoo0]

So I guess we have no consensus on this? Do we all agere that it's a condition placed either Viper or the token? Or are we still split on it being that or a Continuous Effect?

I don't know why the effect that Continuously adjust the Option Token's stats wouldnt be Continuous.

This isnt like Ojama Trio, where the card that creates the Token's is sent to the Graveyard after resolution. There is actually a regulatory effect still on the field. I really dont see that the Option Token's stats changing as a condition. I still say it is the effect of Victory Viper. To say that would be to say that Sheep Token's cannot be Tributed for Tribute Summons because there is a Condition placed on them from Scapegoat, and that since Snake Token's do not have that statement, that there is "no condition". So, is a restriction the same as a condition?

If Skill Drain negates effects saying "This card's name is treated as..."

Skill Drain negates Proto-Cyber Dragon because it is part of his effect. It doesnt negate Harpie Lady 1 or the others because they are treated as Harpie Lady regardless, as it is an extension, rather than a effect.

 

[Maruno]

I don't know why the effect that Continuously adjust the Option Token's stats wouldnt be Continuous.

This isnt like Ojama Trio, where the card that creates the Token's is sent to the Graveyard after resolution. There is actually a regulatory effect still on the field. I really dont see that the Option Token's stats changing as a condition. I still say it is the effect of Victory Viper. To say that would be to say that Sheep Token's cannot be Tributed for Tribute Summons because there is a Condition placed on them from Scapegoat, and that since Snake Token's do not have that statement, that there is "no condition". So, is a restriction the same as a condition?

You can't deny Snake Token has a condition that inflicts damae upon its (in battle) destruction. There are many different kinds of conditions, so why should Option Token be any different? As far as I know, there's no precedent for it being different, thus making the condition answer the simpler and more probable one.

 

[masterwoo0]

You can't deny Snake Token has a condition that inflicts damae upon its (in battle) destruction. There are many different kinds of conditions, so why should Option Token be any different? As far as I know, there's no precedent for it being different, thus making the condition answer the simpler and more probable one.

Sheep Token's and Ojama Token's have a restriction, rather than a condition, as they can be used for Tributes as long as it is not a "Tribute Summon".

There is also no other Token that can only exist as long as the card that generated it exist either. All other Tokens are independent of the card that produced them. So there doesnt need to be precedence, as there is nothing preceeding it to compare. It is its "own" precedence.

You can't use Gradius Option because that is an actual Monster Card that has a true effect. Poisonous Snake Token's are independent. Sheep Tokens, Double Dude Token's, Lamb Token's, Block Token's, Ojama Token's, and Lekunga Token's are as well.

Option Token is nothing like any of these Tokens, save for the fact that it cannot generate itself.

 

[Maruno]

I see no basis for this thinking. And "restriction" and "condition" are the same thing, at least in my mind. Option Token would work perfectly well if it was just like any other Monster Token (which I believe it is).

But I don't want to flame you. They're just my opinions.

 

[Digital Jedi]

I have to agree. How is a restriction placed on a token not a condition? Their not seperate game terms. Normal Monsters can't have restrictions on them unless an effect places them there.

 

[masterwoo0]

I have to agree. How is a restriction placed on a token not a condition? Their not seperate game terms. Normal Monsters can't have restrictions on them unless an effect places them there.

Sheep Tokens
Restriction = Sheep Tokens cannot be used for Tribute Summons.

Condition = If Sheep Tokens cannot be used for Tribute Summons, they can be used for everything else that requres a Tribute.

Dark Ruler Ha Des
Restriction = Dark Ruler Ha Des cannot be Special Summoned from the Graveyard.

Condition = If Dark Ruler Ha Des is removed from play, he can be Special Summoned.

Option Tokens
Restriction:

Condition: If Victory Viper is removed from the field or placed face-down, the Option Token created by it disappears.


Restrict; to confine within bounds : RESTRAIN

Condition; a premise upon which the fulfillment of an agreement depends : STIPULATION

 

[Digital Jedi]

Sheep Tokens
Restriction = Sheep Tokens cannot be used for Tribute Summons.

Condition = If Sheep Tokens cannot be used for Tribute Summons, they can be used for everything else that requires a Tribute.

What you've defined there as a condition, is the default action for all tokens. Remember that tokens are Normal Monster Cards regardless of what we use to represent them. Anything a Normal Monster Card can do while on the field a token can do with the exception of being flipped face-down. Sheep Tokens can be used for tribute effects, because Normal Monster Cards can to. It is the default ability of a Normal Monster Card to be used for any and all tributes, unless an effect limits that in some capacity. That's not a condition, that's game mechanics.

Dark Ruler Ha Des
Restriction = Dark Ruler Ha Des cannot be Special Summoned from the Graveyard.

Condition = If Dark Ruler Ha Des is removed from play, he can be Special Summoned.

How is that a condition? His effect says he cannot be Special Summoned from the Graveyard. How is it a condition that he can be Special Summon from an area he doesnt say he cannot be Special Summoned from? Does that make the ability to Special Summon Cyber End Dragon outside of a Fusion Summon a condition as well?

Option Tokens
Restriction:

Condition: If Victory Viper is removed from the field or placed face-down, the Option Token created by it disappears.


Restrict; to confine within bounds : RESTRAIN

Condition; a premise upon which the fulfillment of an agreement depends : STIPULATION

Yes. And and the fulfillment of an agreement can be to NOT do something as well as do something. It can be dependant on inaction just as much as action.

 

[masterwoo0]

How is that a condition? His effect says he cannot be Special Summoned from the Graveyard. How is it a condition that he can be Special Summon from an area he doesnt say he cannot be Special Summoned from? Does that make the ability to Special Summon Cyber End Dragon outside of a Fusion Summon a condition as well?

Dark Ruler Ha Des does not have an effect that states he cannot be reborn from the Graveyard. If that was the case, it could be negated by being attacked by another Dark Ruler Ha Des that has more attack. But, it can't be negated, so that means that it is not an effect, and is instead a restriction.

 

[Maruno]

Sheep Tokens
Restriction = Sheep Tokens cannot be used for Tribute Summons.

Condition = If Sheep Tokens cannot be used for Tribute Summons, they can be used for everything else that requres a Tribute.

The "condition" is common sense, and is meaningless. Try this one:

Condition: Sheep Token cannot be Tributed for a Tribute Summon.

Anything else is a general ruling for any Token (cannot be specifically sent to Graveyard/hand/rfp/Deck, only exists on field, etc. etc.).

Dark Ruler Ha Des
Restriction = Dark Ruler Ha Des cannot be Special Summoned from the Graveyard.

Condition = If Dark Ruler Ha Des is removed from play, he can be Special Summoned.

I'll give you the restriction here (but call it a condition, because it is one), since there are rulings that say the same thing. But the "condition" you've written is again common sense. Removed from play is also very irrelevant to anything about this card, since removing from play this card is nothing special.

That's all you need to know. Logic suggests anything not explicitly stated otherwise behaves exactly as any other thing of its type.

Option Tokens
Restriction:

Condition: If Victory Viper is removed from the field or placed face-down, the Option Token created by it disappears.

Option Token
Condition: The ATK, DEF, Level, Attribute and Type of this card are always equal to the same of [target card].

You're trying to attribute rulings and situations that are a part of the game as a whole, to specific cards/Monster Tokens. This is meaningless, not to mention incorrect. Gameplay rules are entirely separate to conditions, and apply universally. Like this one:

Game mechanic: If a face-up monster has an undefined Attribute, Type or Level, it is an illegal card for being a face-up monster, and is immediately sent to the Graveyard. (It is not destroyed.)


You're overcomplicating things.

 

[masterwoo0]

If a face-up monster has an undefined Attribute, Type or Level, it is an illegal card for being a face-up monster, and is immediately sent to the Graveyard. (It is not destroyed.)


You're overcomplicating things.

You were already told this once before... Magical Hats defines a non-monster card only by 0 ATK and 0 DEF. No level, attribute, and no type are given, and they are not destroyed until the end of the Battle Phase of the turn, but Magical Hats effect, and not because they can't exist..

 

[Maruno]

You were already told this once before... Magical Hats defines a non-monster card only by 0 ATK and 0 DEF. No level, attribute, and no type are given, and they are not destroyed until the end of the Battle Phase of the turn, but Magical Hats effect, and not because they can't exist..

Yes, and it works. The game mechanic I stated is absolutely fine.

The Magical Hat monsters don't even HAVE Attribute, Type or Level, as you yourself said. Therefore it's impossible for them to be undefined. Magical Hats is actually completely irrelevant here as an argument, since it's just not applicable.

No one said monsters had to have every stat possible. Magical Hats is the only expection to that thought, but it doesn't go AGAINST any rules we have about the way monsters work.

 

[masterwoo0]

Magical Hats is the only expection to that thought, but it doesn't go AGAINST any rules we have about the way monsters work.

So one card can be an exception, yet not be a precedence, while another card can have nothing comparable, yet be just like everything else.

Insane.

 

[Maruno]

Magical Hats is the exception to the thought that EVERY monster MUST have ATK, DEF, Level, Attribute, Type and Name. Clearly the Magical Hat monsters only have ATK and DEF.

Victory Viper XX03 is certainly comparable to Cobra Jar, if not other cards. They're both monsters that Special Summon a Token. They both put conditions on the monsters they Special Summon (Poisonous Snake Token = upon battle destruction, inflict 500 damage; Option Token = copy stats from this monster).

In my mind, things work perfectly like this, using explanations and examples already seen before. The "conditions" and "restrictions" you're trying to place on Option Token are in fact part of general gameplay - the game mechanics. Just because some of these game mechanics only apply to one monster (or Monster Token), doesn't mean they can't be general game mechanics able to be applied to future similar monsters.