Dark Realm vs. Exchange

S

squid

removed from play
this question popped up recently in some discussions I have been having:

Player1: has a set Dragged Down to the Grave. They have 1 Exchange spelll card and 1 ARmy God-Silver in their hand.

P1 activates Exchange, forcing the P2 to take Silver, and P1 takes (whatever)

P1 activates the set DDttG and chooses to discard Silverfrom their opponent's hand.

Because Silverwas discarded by a card effect it special summons itself to the field.

QQ: Will Silver consider itself discarded by an "opponent's" effect, considering that both monster and DDttG were controlled by different players when the discard occurred, and activate?

My own thoughts are no, it would not. Silver, or Gold, would determine who was the controller of the discard effect only after it had been special summoned back to the field on the owner's side. Since DDttG was also controlled by the same player, the effect would not activate.

But I need to know for certain.
 
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Arrghhhh! I can't stand it! I should know the name Entilzha. I just can't remember where. I'm lening towards Star Trek but...argggh!!! I can't remember.

Er.. uh, yeah, on topic. What John said.
lookaround.gif
 
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skey23 said:
I would agree with that. And going back to what Squid said about SEGOC. If multiple "Silver"s were discarded at the same time, then they would indeed form a SEGOC chain with the controller of all of them choosing the order in which to activate/resolve them.
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With the SEGOC mentioned earlier, I was referring to the 2 effects of 1 monster card, assuming that both were succefully able to activate (ie: Graveyard), and the owner being able to decide the order of those effects.

I can definitely see how multiple cards with mandatory effects would create such a situation, but I was unclear as to if a single card could generate that.

Digital Jedi: Arent I ridiculous? Im not impatient, just eager :p
 
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But do you agree?

Let's say that Card Destruction was activated by Player 1.
Skill Drain is active on the field.
a single copy of Gold is discarded to the Graveyard thanks to the effect of CD.

Now, in the Grave, both requirements for the 2 effects have been met: 1-the effect to special summon, 2- the effect to destroy 2 cards on the field.

Would the 2 effects be considered an actual case of SEGOC generated by one card?

Reason I ask is that if so, the controlling player can choose the order to resolve the effects.
A) player resolves the special summoning first, monster is on the field, 2nd effect (destruction) cannot resolve successfully.
B) player resolves the destruction effect first, perhaps even taking out Skill Drain, and the 2nd effect (summons) resolves also, putting Gold on the field.

IF it is not a case of SEGOC, how does the player determine which effect resolves first? Because that could greatly alter the outcome, as illustrated above.
 
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I'm just trying to figure out how "Skill Drain" would be able to negate an effect that was activated in the Graveyard.

Here's a different scenario with cards we all know and love.

I have "Sangan" on the field, an active "Skill Drain", a set "Call of the Haunted" from a previous turn, and "Summoned Skull" in hand. I tribute "Sangan" for "Summoned Skull", "Sangan"s effect activates in the Graveyard, I chain "Call of the Haunted" to "Sangan"s effect.

Is "Sangan"s effect negated since "Sangan" is now face-up on the field when his effect resolves from the Graveyard?
 
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Yes in your example Sangan's effect would be negated i belive since he would be on the field when it tried to resolve. Skill Drain doesn't stop the activation of effects.

Squid i think so on the SEGOC with the Dark Realm monsters but i have been looking back for any other monsters that might do something similarly.
 
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Hmm, but you don't 'activate' "Fusilier"s effect. It's not a chainable event.

I can definitely 'see' it negating it, and would completely understand why it did. I just want to know if it 'really' does.

Most cases involving "Skill Drain" involve the monster's effect activating on the field, then the monster leaving the field in one way or another, in order to make it's effect resolve properly.

This is the 1st time I've seen anybody ask about an effect activating in the Graveyard, then that monster ending up on the field for "Skill Drain" to 'attempt' to negate.
 
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Entilzha. B5. <smacks forehead> Duh! I only watched the entire series and every movie in sequence. :rolleyes:

Digital Jedi: Arent I ridiculous? Im not impatient, just eager :p
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I was thinking more like glutton for punishment.:eek:rcfouet::eek:rcspash::eek:rcpoursu
 
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Here is an example with Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys special summoning itself from the graveyard to the feild with Skill Drain active. This if the case is the secondary effects of the Dark realm monsters end up resolving on the field. But if you resolve the second sentence in the graveyard then Skill Drain will not effect it. Ruling from Ronin

"¢ If "Skill Drain" is active on the field, the effect of "Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys" that Special Summons it from the Graveyard is still activated, because it is activated in the Graveyard. However, the effect that destroys Spell and Trap Cards on the field is negated because it activates on the field (so "Skill Drain" and other Spell and Trap Cards on the field are not destroyed in this case).
 
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Entilzha said:
Here is an example with Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys special summoning itself from the graveyard to the feild with Skill Drain active.
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How did I know you were gonna post this exact scenario?..lol. :king:
Entilzha said:
This if the case is the secondary effects of the Dark realm monsters end up resolving on the field. But if you resolve the second sentence in the graveyard then Skill Drain will not effect it.
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There's a difference here between these monsters. The 2nd effect of the "Phoenix" is not activated until it is special summoned via it's effect. And it doesn't activate IN the Graveyard. Both of the effects of the Dark Realm monsters would activate in the Graveyard.
If "Skill Drain" is active on the field, the effect of "Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys" that Special Summons it from the Graveyard is still activated, because it is activated in the Graveyard. However, the effect that destroys Spell and Trap Cards on the field is negated because it activates on the field (so "Skill Drain" and other Spell and Trap Cards on the field are not destroyed in this case).
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I've highligted the sections that I feel are key here.
 
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Yes I understand that and in this case its made perfectly clear that the secondary effect depends on the first effect. Thats because the second effect it linked to the first effect. With the Dark Realm monsters the seconded effect seems to be more like a addon to the first not its own effect as much.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
I was thinking more like glutton for punishment.:eek:rcfouet::eek:rcspash::eek:rcpoursu
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Bring it on! ;D

Skey:
If you don't mind Im going to post some of the things that Entilzha and I were discussing privately. That may help clarify where my thinking is coming from.

Lets imagine that you have 3 monsters on the Field. Your opponent activates Card Destruction and you discard 3 Silver monsters.

Only two of those Silvers could be summoned, afterwards your field would be full. Therefore, the last Dark Realm monster (Gold or Silver) could not be special summoned.


Does that mean that the effect of the 3rd, unsummoned monster, will not be allowed to activate?

It only makes sense if the two sentences are treated as separate effects.

My only question right now is which one activates and resolves first: the summoning or the other (discard/destroy)?
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This did lead to some other ideas, but I want to save those, in case they end up being misleading.
 
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The Special Summoning has nothing to do with the 2nd effect of these Realm monsters. If the condition is met, then the effect will activate. It doesn't matter how many available monster slots there are.

The simple fact they were discarded by your opponent's effect is what allows them to activate.

Here's how I see the effect(s) working.

When the monster is sent from the hand to the Graveyard, it's effect(s) are both triggered and 1st check to see how the monster was sent to the Graveyard (deja vu...I think I've said this before). If the monster was destroyed, or sent, the effect(s) do nothing. If the monster was discarded, then they see how it was discarded. If it was from anything other than card effect, nothing happens. If it was from card effect, then they check to see whose card effect. If it was the controller's, then only the 1st effect will activate. If it was the opponent's, then both effects will activate. Since they are both triggered by the same event, I can see a SEGOC situation occuring quite easily from this. So I'll 'assume' that's the case. The controller decides which effect to resolve 1st. It 'shouldn't' matter how many monster spaces there are. Both effects activate in the Graveyard. So when the Special Summon effect attempts to resolve and there are not enough spaces available, then it simply does nothing, or 'fizzles'. Then the discard/destroy/whatever effect still attempts to resolve because it's a separate effect that is NOT dependant upon the 1st.

Now, where I see some issues are in the 'possibility' of the SEGOC situation when multiple Realm monsters are discarded at the same time. Since they are all attempting to activate at the same time, how would you be allowed to form the SEGOC chain? Put all the Special Summons 1st, then all the discard/destroy/whatevers? Or would you have to pick the order for each individual Realm monster, meaning you could have Special Summon, then discard, then Special Summon, then destroy, then destroy, then Special Summon.

There's also the question about meeting the effect requirements for the 2nd effect. So far, I haven't seen any translations that say 'up to 2 cards', they've all said choose 2 cards. So if my opponent doesn't have the necessary 2 cards, will I even be able to activate the 2nd effect?
 
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skey23 said:
The Special Summoning has nothing to do with the 2nd effect of these Realm monsters. If the condition is met, then the effect will activate. It doesn't matter how many available monster slots there are.

The simple fact they were discarded by your opponent's effect is what allows them to activate.

Here's how I see the effect(s) working.

When the monster is sent from the hand to the Graveyard, it's effect(s) are both triggered and 1st check to see how the monster was sent to the Graveyard (deja vu...I think I've said this before). If the monster was destroyed, or sent, the effect(s) do nothing. If the monster was discarded, then they see how it was discarded. If it was from anything other than card effect, nothing happens. If it was from card effect, then they check to see whose card effect. If it was the controller's, then only the 1st effect will activate. If it was the opponent's, then both effects will activate. Since they are both triggered by the same event, I can see a SEGOC situation occuring quite easily from this. So I'll 'assume' that's the case. The controller decides which effect to resolve 1st. It 'shouldn't' matter how many monster spaces there are. Both effects activate in the Graveyard. So when the Special Summon effect attempts to resolve and there are not enough spaces available, then it simply does nothing, or 'fizzles'. Then the discard/destroy/whatever effect still attempts to resolve because it's a separate effect that is NOT dependant upon the 1st.

Now, where I see some issues are in the 'possibility' of the SEGOC situation when multiple Realm monsters are discarded at the same time. Since they are all attempting to activate at the same time, how would you be allowed to form the SEGOC chain? Put all the Special Summons 1st, then all the discard/destroy/whatevers? Or would you have to pick the order for each individual Realm monster, meaning you could have Special Summon, then discard, then Special Summon, then destroy, then destroy, then Special Summon.
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That is where I am at right now. perhaps you could enlighten me a tad: When arranging these madatory effects, does the order go--turn player, opponent, turn player, opponent--- for as many mandatory effects as have been triggered?

Or does the turn player, the one with priority, somehow arrange all their mandatory effects before the opponent adds to the chain?

There's also the question about meeting the effect requirements for the 2nd effect. So far, I haven't seen any translations that say 'up to 2 cards', they've all said choose 2 cards. So if my opponent doesn't have the necessary 2 cards, will I even be able to activate the 2nd effect?
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I have seen one translation that states "up to" for the Gold monster. However, I won't get into that. If it doesn't have the "up to" for the text, it would seem apparent that it requires a specific number of available cards to either destroy (Gold) or discard (Silver). That is an issue that is easier to interpret. And it also cannot be confirmed until the release of the actual text.

Im just concerned with the above portion for right now.
 
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