Dark Realm vs. Exchange

squid

removed from play
this question popped up recently in some discussions I have been having:

Player1: has a set Dragged Down to the Grave. They have 1 Exchange spelll card and 1 ARmy God-Silver in their hand.

P1 activates Exchange, forcing the P2 to take Silver, and P1 takes (whatever)

P1 activates the set DDttG and chooses to discard Silverfrom their opponent's hand.

Because Silverwas discarded by a card effect it special summons itself to the field.

QQ: Will Silver consider itself discarded by an "opponent's" effect, considering that both monster and DDttG were controlled by different players when the discard occurred, and activate?

My own thoughts are no, it would not. Silver, or Gold, would determine who was the controller of the discard effect only after it had been special summoned back to the field on the owner's side. Since DDttG was also controlled by the same player, the effect would not activate.

But I need to know for certain.
 
Well, unfortunately we won't know for 'certain' until tomorrow most likely when they send the rulings out to all the Judges.

For now, I would say it wouldn't based on the fact that it went back to the original controller's Graveyard. Since that's where it's effect would activate in my mind. It would check how it was sent to the Graveyard 1st, destroyed, discarded, sent, etc... THEN if it was discarded it would look at who's effect forced the discard. Since it was the person whose Graveyard it's currently sitting in, then it wouldn't consider that to be the opponent's effect.

Just my thoughts.
 
Will densetsu_x, or someone else, be posting those released rulings here (or link thereto) for EEN? My compatriot and I were having these discussions in an attempt to understand the mechanics better, without the benefit of a rulings page.

As you know, it may not always be possible to look up or remember every single ruling.:)

btw: this is tying into another concern with the Dark Realm monsters vs. Skill Drain that I was having. However, I will wait for a bit before asking. Might be redundant to the rulings released tomorrow.
 
Well, I would assume the Judge's List bot would automatically post them when it sees them, like it does with all the other Judge's List posts.

And I'll try to answer your "Skill Drain" question before you even ask it...lol. No, it won't negate their effects since they activate in the Graveyard. ;)
 
How come no one caught this before me? There is no way Silver could be summoned by DDitC, since the last thing to happend would be drawing, not discarding. timing, people, timing.
-pssvr
 
skey23 said:
And I'll try to answer your "Skill Drain" question before you even ask it...lol. No, it won't negate their effects since they activate in the Graveyard. ;)

But would it resolve in the Graveyard?

My question deals with the timing of the effects? It doesnt appear that the discard/destroy effect of Silver/Gold would be dependant upon the summoning. So that is separate.
If 3 Silver monsters are discarded via an opponent's Card Destruction, and only 2 monster spaces are available, the 3rd Silver should still be able to activate its effect.

Both effects are worded (so far as I have seen) as mandatory effects. So which one occurs first: the summoning or the "other" effect?

This would not be SEGOC, since the controller of Silver/Gold controls both effects. But, if the controller chose to resolve the special summoning effect first, then when the 2nd effect went to resolve, the monster card would be face up on the field, and therefore subject to the effect of Skill Drain, would it not?
 
Isn't their summoning effect manditory so you can't miss the timing it would just start a new chain right after the current one has resolves? They don't say you may summon them it just says summon them when they have been discarded.

hey squid its Athgar ;)
 
Entilzha said:
Isn't their summoning effect manditory so you can't miss the timing it would just start a new chain right after the current one has resolves? They don't say you may summon them it just says summon them when they have been discarded.
Yes, all of the translations so far show the effects to be mandatory, NOT optional. So they would not be subject to the 'Missing the Timing" crud.

BTW..welcome to COG Entilzha! Please visit the Intro/Farewell area and introduce yourself to everyone.
 
pssvr said:
How come no one caught this before me? There is no way Silver could be summoned by DDitC, since the last thing to happend would be drawing, not discarding. timing, people, timing.
-pssvr

according to the texts available for these monsters, it would not be possible to miss the timing. If it is possible, the monster must be summoned.

Edit: beat to the punch.

Btw: Entilzha, aka athgar12, is the person with whom I was discussing this subject originally.
 
Ok, just for everybody's sake..Here is one possible card text for Silver.
EEN-JP023
Military God of Dark Realm - Silver
Dark/Demon/5/2300/1400
When this card is discarded from your hand by effect of another card, special summon this card to the field. When this card is discarded by effect of opponent's card, choose 2 cards in opponent's hand and put them onto the bottom of opponent's deck in any order.
So, everybody is 'assuming' that if the 2nd option occurs, the 1st is automatic, which may not be the case.

Also, this particular text doesn't mention being discarded to the Graveyard, so what happens when "Banisher of the Light" is face-up on the field. Does the effect (either one) still activate?

Honestly, it's just not worth trying to figure out how the card works when we don't even have the 'official' English text yet.
 
eh, I guess you are right. There is still too much up in the air to be able to make a conclusion about the effects. Better luck tomorrow, right?

btw, is there a specific release time for these rulings, or is it simply sometime tomorrow?
 
Shure its importain to start looking and talking about these effects. Yes ofical rules will be handed out soon, but discusion like these is what helps people to understand timing and resolving chains. Plus its already wensday so the weekend comes up quick its good to be familiar with the cards specially if you will be judging at a pre-release event over the weekend.
 
<soft chuckle> Boy you folks are impatient! I'm going along with skey on this one.....can't you just wait a day or two?

That "when" word always makes me leery <wrinkling my nose>

Yes, welcome Entilzha please. He is another of the judges I'm blessed to work with in my area besides Evil Fiber Jar and patman133. Entilzha is my "Terminator" at regionals and Sneak Peaks <soft chuckle> A fine gentleman and one who knows how to handle a crowd and people who insist on causing trouble....as well as being a very knowledgable judge.
 
ahah! He had mentioned working with a L3, judging at events. I kept meaning to ask him which L.3 he was referring to.

John, you realize Entilzha is now associated with Dillie-O and I, right? Time to come on over ;)
 
Entilzha said:
Shure its importain to start looking and talking about these effects. Yes ofical rules will be handed out soon, but discusion like these is what helps people to understand timing and resolving chains. Plus its already wensday so the weekend comes up quick its good to be familiar with the cards specially if you will be judging at a pre-release event over the weekend.
Ok, so to keep this going, and to help with timing and chains, as Entilzha put it, let's set some 'universal' assumptions about "Silver".

1. If the 2nd effect is triggered, then the 1st is triggered as well.
2. The card's effect only activates when sent to the Graveyard.
3. We won't talk about "Banisher of the Light"..lol.

Everybody agree?
 
skey23 said:
Ok, so to keep this going, and to help with timing and chains, as Entilzha put it, let's set some 'universal' assumptions about "Silver".

1. If the 2nd effect is triggered, then the 1st is triggered as well.
2. The card's effect only activates when sent to the Graveyard.
3. We won't talk about "Banisher of the Light"..lol.

Everybody agree?

ahh! Which effect? If we are to assume that the text is consistent with what we already know, then I see nothing that indicates that the 2nd effect of discarding or destroying (silver/gold) needs to activate from the Grave. Only the special summoning.

I really may have jumped the gun with this question. There are various outcomes to these effects already, and we have no clear foundation. I just like the mental exercise.:)
 
squid said:
ahah! He had mentioned working with a L3, judging at events. I kept meaning to ask him which L.3 he was referring to.

John, you realize Entilzha is now associated with Dillie-O and I, right? Time to come on over ;)

I should have known....Entilzha IS fiendishly clever ;)
 
Well its good to look at these things cause they are part of game mechanics and thats what 90% of the game(other 10% is cause Konima says so but whole other story heh)

Right now squid and I have discused and come to think that the second sentence on thes Dark Realm monsters is like a clause saying that if discarding was from this then do this effect. Now when the Dark realm monster is discarded by you opponates effect it automaticly activates both effects and both effects, assuming the text is correct, are mantitory would begin a new chain after the current chain is resolved. Those effects would then be setup into a new chain that both players would have a chance to responed. Now depending on how the chain was setup it would be posiable for the both effects to resolve in the graveyard.
 
I would agree with that. And going back to what Squid said about SEGOC. If multiple "Silver"s were discarded at the same time, then they would indeed form a SEGOC chain with the controller of all of them choosing the order in which to activate/resolve them.
 
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