Flip monsters vs. cards like SORL, Desert Sunlight etc

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Case of SEGOC:

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Simultaneous Effects[/font] [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sometimes, you will have simultaneous effects attempting to activate at the same time, such as when Mystic Tomato attacks Mystic Tomato, or 2 Sangans are sent to the Graveyard at the same time because of Dark Hole.

Whenever you have simultaneous effects, resolve them in a chain, even if they are Spell Speed 1 effects. This is a special case when Spell Speed 1 effects can be chained to each other, because they are all trying to activate at the same time and the players are not choosing to activate them.

If only one player has simultaneous effects being activated, then that player can choose the order in which they resolve.

Example #1:
Player A activates Swords of Revealing Light. Player B controls a face-down Cyber Jar and a face-down Morphing Jar #2. Both effects activate simultaneously, and Player B chooses the order in which they go on a chain. Player B can choose to have Cyber Jar be Step 1 (and resolve last) and Morphing Jar #2 to be Step 2 (and resolve first), or vice versa.

If both players have simultaneous effects being activated, then the "turn player" (the player taking his/her turn) automatically has his/her effect become Step 1 of the chain. The turn player has no choice but to be Step 1 of the chain, although if he/she has multiple effects being activated, he/she does choose which of those effects is Step 1.

Example #1: Mystic Tomato vs. Mystic Tomato
Player A, the turn player, attacks Player B's Mystic Tomato with his own Mystic Tomato. Both monsters are destroyed and then sent to the Graveyard. Their simultaneous effects form a chain.
Step 1: Player A's Mystic Tomato effect, because he is the turn player.
Step 2: Player B's Mystic Tomato effect.
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](resolve in reverse order)[/font]
Step 2 resolves first, and Player B Special Summons an Appropriate monster.
Step 1 resolves second, and Player A Special Summons an Appropriate monster.

Example #2: Mystic Tomato vs. Shining Angel & Jowgen the Spiritualist
Player A, the turn player, attacks Player B's Shining Angel with his Mystic Tomato. Both monsters are destroyed and then sent to the Graveyard. Their simultaneous effects form a chain.
Step 1: Player A's Mystic Tomato effect, because he is the turn player.
Step 2: Player B's Shining Angel effect.
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](resolve in reverse order)[/font]
Step 2 resolves first, and Player B Special Summons Jowgen the Spiritualist from his Deck. Jowgen the Spiritualist's effect prevents any more Special Summons from occurring as long as he remains face-up on the field. Step 1 would resolve next, but because of Jowgen the Spiritualist, the effect Disappears and Player A does not Special Summon a monster.

Example #3: Witch of the Black Forest vs. Witch of the Black Forest
Player A, the turn player, attacks Player B's Witch of the Black Forest (in Attack Position) with his own Witch of the Black Forest. Both players have 4 pieces of Exodia in their hand and the 5th piece in their Deck. Both Witches are sent to the Graveyard. Their simultaneous effects form a chain.
Step 1: Player A's Witch of the Black Forest effect, because he is the turn player.
Step 2: Player B's Witch of the Black Forest effect.
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](resolve in reverse order)[/font]
Step 2 resolves first, and Player B retrieves the 5th piece of Exodia from his Deck.
The Duel ends. Player B is the winner. Player A, the turn player, never gets to retrieve his 5th Exodia piece.

Example #4: Black Pendant vs. Sangan/Exodia
Player A, the turn player, has Sangan on the field and 4 Exodia pieces in his hand, but only has 400 Life Points. Player B has a monster equipped with Black Pendant. Player A activates Dark Hole. All monsters are sent to the Graveyard. There are two simultaneous effects: Sangan's effect and Black Pendant's effect. They form a chain.
Step 1: Player A's Sangan effect, because he is the turn player.
Step 2: Player B's Black Pendant effect.
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](resolve in reverse order)[/font]
Step 2 resolves first and does 500 damage to Player A. Player A has no Life Points remaining. The Duel ends and Player B is the winner.
(Had Player B activated Dark Hole during his turn, then the chain would have been reversed, Black Pendant's effect would be Step 1, and Player A would win with Exodia.) [/font]
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The Short answer is that the controller of the effects decides the order to put simultaneous effects on the chain. So if they are your creatures you can add them in any order you want provided the are all required and not optional effects.

It resolves the same as a normal chain, first on the chain is the last to resolve.

This can be very important if you want to make the most of your powers.

For example

Morphing Jar first
Morphing Jar #2 second
Cyber Jar third
would result in the Cyber Jar (field going boom and you and your opponent getting five more cards)

Morphing Jar #2 (any subsequent monsters you and your opponent get going back to deck and attempt to resummon that many level four monsters, bleeding more cards for opponent hopefully)

Morphing Jar (ditching both you hands and getting five cards each)

Depending on the order you choose you may win the game with such a manuever.

Hope this helps.
 
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I don't think this is a case of SEGOC though, since all the effects are controlled by the same player. The controlling player simply chooses which order to resolve them in.

In the examples provided for SEGOC above, the monster effects being resolved are controlled by opposing players. So there has to be a standard order that determines whose effect resolves first. This is important because of potential game winning situations (Jowgen, Exodia, ect)

editted for stupidity and lack of proper sleep habits
 
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In the examples provided for SEGOC above, the monster effects being resolved are controlled by opposing players.
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That is not the case with my answers. Which apparently no one read, since everyone restated it in different words. :D :p XD ;)
 
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squid said:
I don't think this is a case of SEGOC though, since all the effects are controlled by the same player. The controlling player simply chooses which order to resolve them in.
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C'mon Byser Squid!? What is the definition of SEGOC?

All three Flip Effect monsters are flipped at the same time, so they are all being activated at the same time (or simultaneously). They are all Spell Speed 1 effects so how else would they be resolved? LOL.
 
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Simultaneous Events Going On Chain.

I understand what you are saying, and maybe I just shouldn't be participating on any online discussions until this master's class of mine is over, but I had the interpretation that SEGOC was used only to help players determine which mandatory effects would resolve first, as in the case of Player A's Sangan and Player B's Sangan both being sent to the Grave at the same time via Dark Hole.

Of course both players are going to want to take the advantage. If both had 4 pieces of Exodia, they would both want to resolve before their opponent.

In other situations, both players would want to know what the other player was searching out, so they could choose their own Appropriate monster.

SEGOC was used to ensure that there was a defined order that players followed without argument.

But if all the effects are controlled by the same person, then only the controller has say as to what order they are resolved in. There is no prescribed order or argument.

Or am I complicating the issue?
 
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But if all the effects are controlled by the same person, then only the controller has say as to what order they are resolved in.
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Incorrect. Have you read both of the links I posted? They explain how SECOG can be necessary even when only one player's effect is involved. Particularly when we have optional vs mandatory effects.
 
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You wrote something?

jk

I was reading them actually right after that 2nd post. The first one touched upon including multiple effects controlled by the same player, but both threads seemed to be primarily concerned with the effects controlled by opposing players.

I guess if I were to extend the explanation to your diagram (which I do agree with), then I would have to say that all these flip effect monsters resolve within the first portion of SEGOC, which is:
Turn Player's Mandatory Effects.

Are you saying then that the free choice of how to order those effects, within the first step, are a Segoc within the Segoc? .....(editted for elaboration).......

Because as I understood it, with Segoc, there was no opportunity to debate it, you simply had to resolve effects, as in your diagram

1. Turn Player's Mandatory Effects
2. Opponent's Mandatory Effects
3. Turn Player's Optional Effects
4. Opponent's Optional Effects
 
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Well, see, as you know, there are 4 categories of effects in SEGOC. Within each category, effects may be ordered by their controller's choosing. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean they aren't being ordered by the rules of SEGOC.

Let me put it this way: WHY do you get to chose what order they're in? Because the SEGOC mechanic says you do. Exactly.
 
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Slither posted it from UDE's site. It deals with basically the EXACT situation put forth by benjamin...

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Example #1:
Player A activates Swords of Revealing Light. Player B controls a face-down Cyber Jar and a face-down Morphing Jar #2. Both effects activate simultaneously, and Player B chooses the order in which they go on a chain. Player B can choose to have Cyber Jar be Step 1 (and resolve last) and Morphing Jar #2 to be Step 2 (and resolve first), or vice versa.

That should answer it all.
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