'goats....

C

cuzwbd

New Member
@ local tourny today - ran into one i'd never heard... that scapegoats can be used for a tribute set... since a set is not a summon...so & so did it @ regionals etc etc.... any rulings on this??
 
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Kyhotae said:
So when I said that a Normal Summon is the same as a Set, I was technically correct. lol
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No. Let's play the definition game.

Summon face-up: The Japanese term for placing a monster face-up once per turn.

Summon face-down: The Japanese term for placing a monster face-down on the field once per turn.

Summon: The Japanese term for something that is either a Summon face-down or a Summon face-up.

Special Summon: The English AND Japanese term for placing a monster face-up on the field (unless specifically stated to be face-down) by a card effect.

Normal Summon: The English term for placing a monster face-up once per turn, with or without a tribute involved.

Set: The English term for placing a monster face-down on the field once per turn, with or without a tribute involved.

So, in other words, Scapegoat's text initially prevented the tokens from being offered as a tribute for a "Summon" which indicated a Summon face-down OR a Summon face-up. Unfortunately, "Summon" was mistranslated as "Normal Summon" and they forgot to specify "Set" as well.

Semantics are fun.

Slither is correct. There is no such thing as a Tribute Set. Note the wording on Scapegoat. This is where an extremely literal interpretation of grammar becomes not only advisable but also necessary. It says "Tribute Summon (or Set)". If it had meant a Tribute Summon or a Tribute Set, it would have said "Tribute- Summon or Set". The lack of a hyphen and the addition of parentheses indicate that "Tribute Summon" is one unit and "Set" is another, both of which are connected bythe conjunction "or".
 
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So then why can't we use forced back on a "Summon Face-Down"?

***He says, playing devil's advocate, but knowing the answer full well, hoping only to demonstrate the folly of technical jargon as an eplaination for anything in this game***
 
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DarkLogicianOfCaos said:
So then why can't we use forced back on a "Summon Face-Down"?

***He says, playing devil's advocate, but knowing the answer full well, hoping only to demonstrate the folly of technical jargon as an eplaination for anything in this game***
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Presumably Forced Back's Japanese wording read "Summoned face-up", which was part of the point of my post.
 
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Jason_C said:
No. Let's play the definition game.
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Last time you did that, it didn't work out very well either........just kidding.......maybe....

***Refer to General Discussion thread "A Quick Explanation of Debate"******

Anywho, there APPARENTLY is such a thing as a tribute set (being it is a possible action a player could take).....

I tribute my monster to set this monster (Guardian Sphinx) face down....(setting up to flip summon next turn)....

EDIT:the phrase "Tribute summon (or set)" uses the parentheses to imply "Tribute summon or tribute set". The parentheses are used there to avoid using the word tribute where common sense would imply its context. Actually, without the parentheses this implication would not be assumed, and the phrase would be simply "Tribute summon or set", effectively reading as meaning any set. Except for the fact that you could not tribute anything to set a level 1-4 monster. Ah, the English language.....is that how you spell parentheses?
 
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The thing is I don't believe it's an official game term like how Tribute Summon is. It's a type of Normal Summon that you can perform. Whether it's an official game term or not doesn't matter. The action can be made. In any case, a "Tribute Set" would be considered a type of "Set" in the same sense as a Tribute Summon is considered to be a type of Normal Summon.
 
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Agreed, it is not an official game term, but what I was trying to point out is that the card scapegoat itself clearly implies that you cannot tribute a goat token for the purpose of setting a high level monster.

What I was really trying to clear up is how the parentheses were used in this instance. They imply the word tribute is associated with set also, rather than the opposite.
 
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the phrase "Tribute summon (or set)" uses the parentheses to imply "Tribute summon or tribute set".
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While of insignificant practical application, this statement is emphatically false.

Allow me to select some quotes from Wikipedia:
Parentheses ... are used to contain parenthetical (or optional, additional) material in a sentence that could be removed without destroying the meaning of the main text.
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In other words, the information in parentheses, while not necessarily useless, should not be taken as being part of the rest of the sentence, and is instead independent of it.
Any punctuation inside parentheses or other brackets is independent from the rest of the text
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Again, pointing out that what is between parentheses has no bearing on what is outside of them, and vice-versa.
They imply the word tribute is associated with set also, rather than the opposite.
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No, what would imply THAT is a hyphen or dash (I'm not 100% sure which one). The closest I can come to a decent explanation of why a hyphen or dash would imply that is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash#En_dash
is that how you spell parentheses?
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Yes, that is how I spell it. How would you spell it?:-:
 
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roadhouse007 said:
Agreed, it is not an official game term, but what I was trying to point out is that the card scapegoat itself clearly implies that you cannot tribute a goat token for the purpose of setting a high level monster.

What I was really trying to clear up is how the parentheses were used in this instance. They imply the word tribute is associated with set also, rather than the opposite.
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In the case of Scapegoat, Tribute is associated with Set because they are saying that you cannot Tribute a Sheep Token for a Tribute Summon, or to Set a Monster that is 5 Star or above.

For clarity purposes, you will see the phrase "Tribute Set" used to show the difference between a regular Normal Summon and a Set, but it is not a officially recognized term, and you will not find it in the Official Yugioh Rule Book where it describes the different types of Summons and examples of Setting Monsters that are 5 Stars and above.

At any rate, the action performed is a "Tribute" of a Monster to "Set" a face-down. There is no need to call it a Tribute Set, as your opponent should be aware of your movement to begin with when you declare that you are sending a monster to the Graveyard to Set one from your hand.
 
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Jason_C said:
Where? It isn't on any card, and I sure don't think it's in the rulebook.
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I sort of already stated that you won't see it, and I also said that it isnt an official term, so you wont see it on any card, but I have seen it used in card rulings.
 
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If you activate this card, you cannot Normal Summon, Flip Summon or Special Summon during this turn. Special Summon 4 "Sheep Tokens" (Beast-Type/EARTH/Level 1/ATK 0/DEF 0) in Defense Position to your side of the field. The "Sheep Tokens" cannot be used as a Tribute for a Tribute Summon (or Set).
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-you may not tribute sheep tokens for monsters.
-you may not perform any form of summon the turn you use scapegoat.
-you may perform sets and tribute sets the turn you use scapegoat (again, you may not perform a tribute set WITH a sheep token)

It can not be more clear then this
 
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Jason_C said:
Again, I simply ask, "Where?"
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Dun da da daaaaaaaaah!
UDE FAQ said:
If you Tribute Set "Behemoth the King of All Animals" with 1 Tribute, its ATK will only be 2000 points when flipped face-up. However, once it is face-up, if it is flipped face-down again, the effect is reset and its ATK becomes 2700 points.
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UDE FAQ said:
The Normal Summon (Tribute Summon) of this monster is the same as, and always considered, a Tribute Set. This card must be in face-down Defense Position when it is Normal Summoned (Tribute Summoned). If you Normal Summon (Tribute Summon) this monster, it is placed face-down on the field; you do not have to show your opponent what monster it is.
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UDE FAQ said:
If you Tribute Set a high level Fiend-Type monster by Tributing this card, you CAN Special Summon another "Skull Knight #2" from your Deck and you do NOT have to reveal your Set monster to prove it is a Fiend-Type.
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UDE FAQ said:
You don't Normal Summon or Flip Summon "Total Defense Shogun" in Defense Position; you Normal Summon or Flip Summon him in face-up Attack Position and he changes to Defense Position. (Or you can Tribute Set him in face-down Defense Position.)
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UDE FAQ said:
If you Tribute Set "Zaborg the Thunder Monarch" face-down the effect is not activated.
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Yay for wonderful search feature of FireFox!....I would say it's an 'official' term based on these rulings.....wouldn't 'you'?
 
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skey23 said:
Dun da da daaaaaaaaah!
Yay for wonderful search feature of FireFox!....I would say it's an 'official' term based on these rulings.....wouldn't 'you'?
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Fair enough.

This brings up the question why they don't make a Special Set, too.
 
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Jason_C said:
Fair enough.

This brings up the question why they don't make a Special Set, too.
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Because the way it works, a special summon face-down will always count as a special summon for referencing any card effect. (but normal/tribute set needs to make a distinction, like for scapegoat, or Array of Revealing Light)

Playing a monster face-down is considered to 'set' it, no matter how its done. (Book of Moon sets a monster). This ruling used to be under Shadow of Eyes on the FAQ.
 
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Just for those curious minds:

"Set", as a verb (as in the first sentence of "D.D. Trap Hole"), means placing a monster face-down. So you can activate "D.D. Trap Hole" when your opponent Sets a monster from the hand, or Special Summons a monster face-down with "The Shallow Grave", or flips his monster face-down with a card effec
 
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So anything that isn't a Normal Summon, Normal Set, Tribute Summon, Tribute Set or Flip Summon is classed as a Special Summon. Some Special Summons are also classed as Sets, if the monster goes face-down.
 
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