I need a recap on Dark World...

T

Tkwiget

Da Twiggy Man!
I'm pretty sure I'd rule correctly on these situations. Just want to make sure.

Situation A

Turn Player has Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World and Sillva, Warlord of Dark World in his hand. Player B has a Set Bottomless Trap Hole. Turn Player activates Card Destruction. Card Destruction resolves completely. Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World and Sillva, Warlord of Dark World are Special Summoned to the field. Player B responds by activating Bottomless Trap Hole. Both Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World and Sillva, Warlord of Dark World are destroyed and removed from play.

Situation B

Turn Player has an active Royal Oppression on the field. Player B has three Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World in his hand. Turn Player activates Card Destruction. All of the Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World activate at the same time to Special Summon onto the field. The Turn Player activates Royal Oppression to pay 800 Life Points to negate the Special Summoning of all three Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World.

Situation C

Turn Player has a Set Morphing Jar with three copies of Broww, Huntsman of Dark World in his hand. Turn Player Flip Summons his Morphing Jar and discards all three copies of Broww, Huntsman of Dark World. The Turn Player first draws his five new cards from Morphing Jar's effect and then draws one card per copy of Broww, Huntsman of Dark World that he discarded from Morphing Jar's effect.


Am I correct on all three of these situations? The first two situations I'm ruling on like that because Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World, Sillva, Warlord of Dark World, and Biiege, Vanguard of Dark World don't trigger their special summoning effect when entering a game phase, like Vampire Lord.

I've got a regional coming up that I'm judging and I need a recap on these situations. =)
 
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EmeraldDragon said:
I dont think any lv 3s here have gotten in on it I cant remember more than 5 or 6 posts behind this one but im sure all our lv 3s will have differing views.
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Last count, we've had three Level 3's respond on this thread. But I'll let them point themselves out if they wish. ;)
 
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Hey i only know the level of a few people here so sue me ok.WooO I didnt doubt that you asked people about it and if you had direct info from Kevin then I cant argue with that. But you never mentioned anything like that in your post you just sai you asked a lv 3 judge who may or may not have been wrong. Please excuse me if I made you feel insulted oranything like that. It wasnt intended

Thugh something does come to mind now....... Since old kevvy boy was apparently called and complained to about this then maybe there might be hope for some kind of official breakdown of the summoning an negation scenarios we have been arguing about coming soon. Either that or if someone posted to the judges list explaining what happened and we could get it in writing from one of them and put it on display so others wouldnt have the same arguement.

Also on a personal note i cant agree with such a flippant answer. Especially in the case of Jinzo wildheart and tien.Especially since once they hit the field those traps would not affect them. After all the one thing you guys complain about the most here is that a summon has no spell speed and therefor cannot be part of a chain in anyway. Since a continuous monster effect becomes ative as soon as he is summoned and it clearly states that a continuous effect cannot be chained to then you must see my confusion on how he can dismiss it out of hand like that. I dunno maybe he spent a while explaining it I wasnt there and cant really comment on what happened but I know that it would put my mind and others at ease if something happened like i stated in paragraph two of this post. Im not trying to be bitchy. If its been officiallt ruled upon like that then fair enough its just it would be best for everyone to be witness to such things to avoid further confusion in the future.
 
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You know, woo0, did you ask that judge if the timing for "Solemn Judgment" is the same as the timing for "Bottomless Trap Hole"? You did claim that during the course of this thread. Something tells me that he would have said "not exactly" or something along those lines. Though the monster must be on the field before "Solemn Judgment" can be used, it still has a sooner timing that "Bottomless Trap Hole".

EVERYONE: Woo0 is correct about when the monster being on the field before the Summon can be negated. Woo0 is NOT correct when he says that "Solemn Judgment" and "Bottomless Trap Hole" have the same timing.

That's the score. Can we be done now?
 
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Well Kyhotae that incorrect part was and always has been a given. Im asking for someone to post on the judges list the basic story here and maybe then we can get a full in-depth process we can follow that will solve this entire arguement so it can be done and will be done until the game mechanics some day change or something.
 
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Well it did encompass that but there were many other factors as well. So since they didnt seem fit to give me access to the judges list can someone go and ask for some bit of explanatory text to fit in here and in the judges list section to stop this kind of arguement happening again?
 
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You may see there being no need but whos to say that people who join in the future who havent seen this thread wont start a similar one that wil go on for longer. Im saying that such an act as im suggesting will solve all future problems with this issue.

If you read back you will see the tension that built up in this thread. Do you want that happening again and maybe going beyond things like "Yeah go away im right youre not". im not pointing fingers but you guys know who you are....
 
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How exactly did this start out in the first place? Was it because someone wanted to know if you could Solemn Judgment a discarded Dark World monster or something? I thought a lot of people knew the timing issues between Solemn Judgment and Horn of Heaven vs. Torrential Tribute, Bottomless Trap Hole, Trap Hole, etc. However, it is poorly defined where this "timing occurs" but at least we should agree to some form that the monster has to be placed on the field (and not the declaration of it) that will be negated and destroyed.

Then this leads to more confusion on how priority works in that scenario. If Player A summons a monster and they retain priority when? Is it before Player B can activate a Spell Speed 3 card in response to the summon or after Player B ask that Player A retains priority? Of course it is never properly explained why the cards have different timings when one says negate the Normal Summon / Flip Summon / Special Summon of a monster while another card will say When your opponent Normal Summons, Flip Summons, or Special Summons a monster(s) with an ATK of 1500 or more, destroy and remove from play the monster(s).

How is accepted that Solemn Judgment cannot be activated once the monster hits the field due to Monster Reborn, Premature Burial, Call of the Haunted, and etc but has to be activated against the summoning card itself? Yet, Torrential Tribute and Bottomless Trap Hole do not have such an odd timing issue? How do we determine the "correct" Special Summon in which Solemn Judgment can be activated against? If Marauding Captain is Normal Summoned are we allowed to Solemn Judgment the monster it may Special Summon? Are we allowed to Solemn Judgment the Hydrogeddon Special Summoned by another Hydrogeddon?
 
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But why not skey. Maraudings effect should be possible to stop with solemn. And why cant it be used against Hydrogeddons effect? just because the effect is in the process of resolving?

If you are using the ide that you cant interrupt a chain until it resolves (Unless youre an archfiend) then I have this to say. The chain ends once the monster is summoned right? He is summoned once he hits the field right? But by the logic shown by wooO then even so there would be an opening to use solemn or horn once he has hit the field. Im not the only one that thinks such things you know. Thats why we need a full definate answer either way on all the timing behind such negators and why they should or shouldnt work in a given situation.
 
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"Solemn Judgment" is a Spell Speed 3 effect and can be activated in the Damage Step. I would think that you could use it to negate a Special Summon of a monster during the Damage Step.

"Horn of Heaven" can't be used because it can't stop Summons that are the result of another card effect ("Premature Burial", "Call of the Haunted", etc.)

As for the "Marauding Captain" thing, I'd just negate HIS sorry butt and be not worry about any card he might have gotten out along side him.
 
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EmeraldDragon said:
But why not skey. Maraudings effect should be possible to stop with solemn. And why cant it be used against Hydrogeddons effect? just because the effect is in the process of resolving?

If you are using the ide that you cant interrupt a chain until it resolves (Unless youre an archfiend) then I have this to say. The chain ends once the monster is summoned right? He is summoned once he hits the field right? But by the logic shown by wooO then even so there would be an opening to use solemn or horn once he has hit the field. Im not the only one that thinks such things you know. Thats why we need a full definate answer either way on all the timing behind such negators and why they should or shouldnt work in a given situation.
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Solemn Judgment can't negate a monster's effect which special summons. It can negate a Trap, it can negate a spell, and it can negate a summon. It has no provision to negate an effect of a monster that special summons like Marauding Captain, Mystic Tomato, Vampire Lord resurrecting from the grave, those are outside of the scope of Solemn Judgment. You can certainly chain Royal Oppression to Marauding Captain's effect, but you must realize that these are effects that start a chain, and Royal Oppression is chaining to them. Solemn Judgment doesn't have that ability. You could also use Royal Oppression against Hydrogeddon's effect except for one little thing, it isn't a Counter Trap and can't be activated in the Damage Step which is where Hydrogeddon activates.
 
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Tiso said:
Which begs the question? When the hell do you activate Solemn Judgment or Horn of Heaven against a Special Summon?
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There are basically 2 ways to Special Summon a monster. The first way is with a Spell Card like "Monster Reborn", a Trap Card like "Call of the Haunted", or an Effect Monster like "Magical Scientist". The second way is built in to the monster, and Special Summons it without activating an effect, such as "Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning" or "Dark Necrofear". "Royal Oppression" can negate both of these types of Special Summon. In the first case, you chain the activation of "Royal Oppression"'s effect to the activation of the Spell, Trap, or Monster Card's effect, and negate the effect. In the second case, right before the monster is Special Summoned, you can activate the effect of "Royal Oppression" to negate the Special Summon (the same procedure that you use for "Horn of Heaven" or "Solemn Judgment").

-edit- You'd think that would be proof of when it occurs. But apparently we'll never get to the end of this one.
And yes, I realize that a Head Judge at a major event said something about the monster already being on the field. And like I've said multiple times now, according to how things look visually at the tournament table that is what happens. According to the mechanics of the game the monster is being stopped before it reaches the field (or at least before the field recognizes the monster and allows the continuous effect to have become active). If everybody understands that the timing windows are in fact different for the two then why keep belaboring this point?

Woo, obviously the timing must be different to activate Horn of Heaven and Bottomless Trap Hole. On that we must agree? Since one happens before continuous effects are active and after the Priority of the Turn Player has been addressed and the other does not. So the monster by your definition has been placed on the field but the summon has not yet been successful because it is awaiting the possibility of negation. Correct? That is a different window. Everyone can go back to other things now?
 
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Emerald, I'm not entirely certain what you meant by that "so sue me" comment. I was only pointing out that, for the most part, the Level 3s on our website choose not put their certifications in their signatures and that they are hard to spot. Which is why I stated that they can identify themselves if they want. That wasn't in any way shape or form meant to be a sarcastic comment directed at you. I was actually poking a little friendly fun at them.

As for those of you who have not been members here for more then 6 months, guys, keep in mind that we d this all the time here. Some of you are taking things the wrong way. Debate is something we've always encouraged here and is the primary reason we don't close rules threads 3 posts in. Clearly, if the answer where that simple, it would be a cause for this much discussion.

Another thing some of you seem to be misunderstanding is the level of tension that has been insinuated at. Personally, I don't know what your talking about. But then again, maybe I know Woo0 and Anthony and our older members a little better then you do having been here so long. They may be disagreeing, but I, nor any of the other moderators have sensed that they are angry with each other. They simply disagree. And if you notice they've done so with a great deal of respect for each other. I'm not saying you newer ones haven't been, because actually I'm quite impressed with the level of restraint being shown by you all. Just keep in mind that his debate will go on as long as it will go on. But the subject will certainly stick with us more if we continue to discuss it in detail.

Repetition is the mother of retention. The more you discuss it, the less likely you are to forget it. The more you remember, the better teacher you will become.
 
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