I need a recap on Dark World...

[Tkwiget]

I'm pretty sure I'd rule correctly on these situations. Just want to make sure.

Situation A

Turn Player has Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World and Sillva, Warlord of Dark World in his hand. Player B has a Set Bottomless Trap Hole. Turn Player activates Card Destruction. Card Destruction resolves completely. Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World and Sillva, Warlord of Dark World are Special Summoned to the field. Player B responds by activating Bottomless Trap Hole. Both Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World and Sillva, Warlord of Dark World are destroyed and removed from play.

Situation B

Turn Player has an active Royal Oppression on the field. Player B has three Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World in his hand. Turn Player activates Card Destruction. All of the Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World activate at the same time to Special Summon onto the field. The Turn Player activates Royal Oppression to pay 800 Life Points to negate the Special Summoning of all three Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World.

Situation C

Turn Player has a Set Morphing Jar with three copies of Broww, Huntsman of Dark World in his hand. Turn Player Flip Summons his Morphing Jar and discards all three copies of Broww, Huntsman of Dark World. The Turn Player first draws his five new cards from Morphing Jar's effect and then draws one card per copy of Broww, Huntsman of Dark World that he discarded from Morphing Jar's effect.


Am I correct on all three of these situations? The first two situations I'm ruling on like that because Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World, Sillva, Warlord of Dark World, and Biiege, Vanguard of Dark World don't trigger their special summoning effect when entering a game phase, like Vampire Lord.

I've got a regional coming up that I'm judging and I need a recap on these situations. =)

 

[masterwoo0]

We all know that until you see something happen, it "hasnt happened". I could say your the Grand Prize winner of a Power Ball Lottery. Until you see the the money, it's all talk.

How many times have you seen your opponent say that they didnt mean to summon a monster or play a Spell or Trap and reset it or return it to hand?

All I'm saying is, your opponent could "start" to summon Treeborn Frog because the effect is optional, then decide they dont want to for whatever reason. They have no choice with Vampire Lord, so your opponent knows he must summon it, and the only choice is "when".

So, if you decided to activate Royal Oppression, they could just say, "Wait, I didnt want to summon it, I was just thinking and decided to leave it in the Graveyard." Of course you wouldnt lose your 800, but again, negating something that hasnt happened is "unusua".

It's called, I was just "touching" my card and you jumped the gun...

 

[masterwoo0]

In the case of summons from hand, you "announce the summon" and it is negated before it has actually "arrived on the field". After this many years you'd think we'd have this fairly clear.

I still dont see where that is correct. How do you completely verify that the action occured?

You negate a summon by basically erasing the fact that it "was" summoned, and destroy it. If I am Tributing a monster, you cannot interrupt the summon, so how can you negate a monster that is being tributed? You can't, because you cannot activate the effect of a Quick-Play or Trap in the middle of a summon.

 

[EmeraldDragon]

The rulebook says that when you do something you clearly state your intentions in a clear voice. Once that announcement has been made it cannot be revoked otherwise the player doing so can be seen to be doing among other things a bit of slow playing.

if someone tries to go back on a decision after its gone too far then call over a judge and they will side with you against little mister "I dont wanna lose mommy".

As for negating a summon of a high level monster lets assume the tribute is a cost. He announces the summon you activate your horn or judgement. His tribute is trib'd as a cost and his monsters summon is still negated.

 

[masterwoo0]

You cannot activate an effect in the middle of a summon. Even if it is a cost. What are you negating? Summoning has no Spell Speed, so what are you activating a card effect to? The sound of my voice?

So, now we are saying that "Announcements" have Spell Speed 1 effects, and you can chain to them.

We should therefore say that the text for Solemn Judgment should be changed to

Pay half of your Life Points. Negate an announcement of a Spell / Trap Card / Normal Summon / Flip Summon / Special Summon and destroy the Spell Card, Trap Card, or Summoned monster.

All an announcement is, is a precursor to an action. Otherwise, things would happen so fast that neither player would know what was going on.

I announce I am summoning a monster. Is it too late to NOT summon it if it hasnt reached the field? I also announce I change my mind and choose not to summon. Am I bound to summon a monster if I realize that I have a level 5 monster that I misread as a level 4, or maybe I forgot that A Legendary Ocean was destroyed recently and I was attempting to summon a level 5 as a level 4, but I hadnt summoned it yet.

There cant be a Solemn Judgment in that case because the card cant even be summoned, but according to everything I have just heard, the card would still be destroyed because Solemn Judgment was legally activated.

 

[anthonyj]

You cannot activate an effect in the middle of a summon. Even if it is a cost. What are you negating? Summoning has no Spell Speed, so what are you activating a card effect to? The sound of my voice?

Where did you get that rule? You can't activate an effect in the middle of a chain resolving. But a summon is not a chain, it has no spell speed, and is in no way treated as a chain.

So, now we are saying that "Announcements" have Spell Speed 1 effects, and you can chain to them.

We should therefore say that the text for Solemn Judgment should be changed to

Pay half of your Life Points. Negate an announcement of a Spell / Trap Card / Normal Summon / Flip Summon / Special Summon and destroy the Spell Card, Trap Card, or Summoned monster.

What we explained is the mechanics of how a summon and the summon negators work. Why does anything need to be changed when the current wording and explanation work fine?

All an announcement is, is a precursor to an action. Otherwise, things would happen so fast that neither player would know what was going on.

I announce I am summoning a monster. Is it too late to NOT summon it if it hasnt reached the field? I also announce I change my mind and choose not to summon. Am I bound to summon a monster if I realize that I have a level 5 monster that I misread as a level 4, or maybe I forgot that A Legendary Ocean was destroyed recently and I was attempting to summon a level 5 as a level 4, but I hadnt summoned it yet.

You announced an illegal summon and your opponent should be able to spot that. Even if he did activate Solemn Judgment the entire event would be rewound to where you mistakenly chose to do something which could not be done, so Solemn Judgment gets returned to face-down and you go back to figuring out a legal move you can make (just like any other illegally activated move, why are we attempting to make a different set of rules for a summon?)

There cant be a Solemn Judgment in that case because the card cant even be summoned, but according to everything I have just heard, the card would still be destroyed because Solemn Judgment was legally activated.

Like I just said, if you activate Ring of Destruction but there is no monster on the field to target and I jump the gun and activate Solemn Judgment by your definition somehow Solemn Judgment was legally activated?

 

[EmeraldDragon]

Ok lets see if i can find a better way of explaining how im seeing this.

If you announce that you are about to engage in a LEGAL action then for all intents and purposes that action is occuring "as you speak". In an actual tournament game people are always worried about time issues for various reasons and either you play at a good pace and things get activated in response to cards that are about to hit the field but havent actually done so yet.

My last tournment i was playing guys that understood that things happen quickly. If he announced he was gonna play a continuous spell card and i had a set MST i said i played that before his card touched the table and he said ok and sent his card straight to the grave. Yes he did announce the name of the card in question. this was also done to me several times by other people there.


If you find peope trying renegue on actions that they have announced they are doing then you will find that they are simply going out of their way to try their best to stay alive and cant accept that bad things happen. Also such actions should go ahead because otherwise your opponent who renegued on his action now knows you have a face-down uber-card of doom.

Now as far as negating a summon goes lets look at it like this. He has priority to activate stuff yes and he can do what he wants then right? you activate your horn or judgement or whatnot.For all intents and purposes for those 2 cards the monster you just summoned isnt actually there. So while he has been summoned he hasnt hit the field and only when he hits the field is he considered successfully summoned.

Am i making sense yet. I do tend to have trouble explaining things.

 

[masterwoo0]

[Re: Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys] If "Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys" is Summoned, and the Summon is negated by "Horn of Heaven", it is Special Summoned during your next Standby Phase because it was destroyed by a card effect.


Why would you say, "if Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys is summoned, and the summon is negated" If the monster never hits the field?

Would it not be, "if your opponent attempts to summon Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys, and the summon is negated".

Either they need to scrub all rulings that clearly make it sound as if the summon was made to the field, or there needs to be a clearer definition on how to negate a summon cause I dont see what you guys see when I read things like the above ruling, over and over....

 

[masterwoo0]

Where did you get that rule? You can't activate an effect in the middle of a chain resolving. But a summon is not a chain, it has no spell speed, and is in no way treated as a chain.

It's the same rule that says you cannot activate Waboku if you think your opponent is in the act of tribute summoning Jinzo.

Wouldnt Waboku have resolved before Jinzo hit the field?

 

[anthonyj]

It's the same rule that says you cannot activate Waboku if you think your opponent is in the act of tribute summoning Jinzo.

Wouldnt Waboku have resolved before Jinzo hit the field?

No because you would have to make the assumption that the window allows anything other than the summon negators to be activated. This is a "timing" issue for the summon negators.

[Re: Royal Oppression] There are basically 2 ways to Special Summon a monster. The first way is with a Spell Card like "Monster Reborn", a Trap Card like "Call of the Haunted", or an Effect Monster like "Magical Scientist". The second way is built in to the monster, and Special Summons it without activating an effect, such as "Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning" or "Dark Necrofear". "Royal Oppression" can negate both of these types of Special Summon. In the first case, you chain the activation of "Royal Oppression"'s effect to the activation of the Spell, Trap, or Monster Card's effect, and negate the effect. In the second case, right before the monster is Special Summoned, you can activate the effect of "Royal Oppression" to negate the Special Summon (the same procedure that you use for "Horn of Heaven" or "Solemn Judgment").

[Re: Sangan] If the Summon of this card is negated with "Horn of Heaven" or "Solemn Judgment" you do not get its effect.

[Re: Tactical Espionage Expert] You can negate the Normal Summon of this monsters with "Horn of Heaven" or "Solemn Judgment". (In which case the Normal Summon failed and the effect of the monster is not applied.)

A normal summon (or a special summon from in hand) is a process. You

A) fulfill any tribute or cost
B) Announce the monster being summoned
C) See if the summon is negated (window where the the negators are activated)
D) If not negated the summon is successful and the monster is on the field, at which point continuous effects are active triggers that activate upon the summon kick off, etc.

 

[masterwoo0]

If you notice, the issue of "timing" is not mentioned in any of those rulings. "Timing" is artificially created when it comes to what we are talking about.

Also, because there is no clarification of where the monster is when the effect that negates his summon activates, your answers

A) fulfill any tribute or cost
B) Announce the monster being summoned
C) See if the summon is negated (window where the the negators are activated)
D) If not negated the summon is successful and the monster is on the field, at which point continuous effects are active triggers that activate upon the summon kick off, etc.

are based more on assumption that rules.

Just because a monster hits the field, does not mean the summon cannot be negated. This isnt a race to see what effects can be activated the fastest, or, "if I get my monster out, they cant negate the summon".

The activation of Solemn Judgment or Horn of Heaven can still be activated because they "undo" the summon itself, and destroy the monster, so what is the difference between destroying the monster in hand and on the field? For some monsters, it can mean quite a bit, and I dont see a "in-between" area.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Didn't we already go through this last year with my "undo/rewind" argument? Basiclly I was the only one who felt that a summon was "undone" by such effects, and everone else told me I was wrong. And if I'm not mistaken, I thought you did too, Woo0.

 

[masterwoo0]

Didn't we already go through this last year with my "undo/rewind" argument? Basiclly I was the only one who felt that a summon was "undone" by such effects, and everone else told me I was wrong. And if I'm not mistaken, I thought you did too, Woo0.

I know what you are referring too, but your intial argument spawned questions such as, "Well why can't you just normal summon again?"

That's the part I disputed with your rewind/undo argument. Not the "concept". The summon is negated, but does not give you the chance to perform another summon because of it.

That's why I say that the monster hits the field before it is negated and destroyed. The summon was performed, only the actual monster was prevented from successfully being fielded, so you arent actually undoing the summon process, you are undoing the "successfully summoned". Just like a Trap Card has a flip up activation, and a effect activation, a Summon sort of has a Summon process, and a sucessfully summoned resolution.

Negator's remove the "successful" part, but the process was still carried out.

 

[Tkwiget]

Didn't realise my thread would explode into a heated debate. Time to get involved!

I'm with Anthoyj on this one.

A) fulfill any tribute or cost
B) Announce the monster being summoned
C) See if the summon is negated (window where the the negators are activated)
D) If not negated the summon is successful and the monster is on the field, at which point continuous effects are active triggers that activate upon the summon kick off, etc.

This is pretty accurate. Think about it for a moment now. Summonings might not have a spell speed, but they do have to resolve their summoning successfully.

I tribute my Treeborn Frog to the Graveyard to Tribute Summon my Mobius the Frost Monarch. I place Treeborn Frog in the Graveyard to show that it's the cost of the Tribute Summoning, then I place Mobius the Frost Monarch on the field. There's a small area where summon negators can activate and that's at this point. If none are activated you proceed to considering the monster has resolved the summoning successfully.

Solemn Judgment and Horn of Heaven don't undo anything. Negating a summoning doesn't undo it. If that was the case you could Normal Summon multiple monsters in a turn. You negated the summoning, however, you have used your single Normal Summoning and Set per turn at this point and can't preform another one.

When you negate a summoning, it merely means you've turned that summoning into an unsuccessful one. It's like playing a kids game with a friend. You try throwing baseballs through a tire. Each person has two baseballs and if you fail to get it through the tire with the first throw then you lose. If I throw one of my baseballs at the tire and fail to make it go through the tire, then according to the rules of the game I can't throw my second baseball.

The first attempt at throwing a baseball through the tire successfully is the first initial "one Normal Summoning or Set per turn" rule. I failed to make the baseball go through the tire. This expresses the action of a summoning being negated by cards like Horn of Heaven or Solemn Judgment.

Now lets get this back on the subject of Dark World monsters. =/

 

[Digital Jedi]

I know what you are referring too, but your intial argument spawned questions such as, "Well why can't you just normal summon again?"

That's the part I disputed with your rewind/undo argument. Not the "concept". The summon is negated, but does not give you the chance to perform another summon because of it.

That's why I say that the monster hits the field before it is negated and destroyed. The summon was performed, only the actual monster was prevented from successfully being fielded, so you arent actually undoing the summon process, you are undoing the "successfully summoned". Just like a Trap Card has a flip up activation, and a effect activation, a Summon sort of has a Summon process, and a sucessfully summoned resolution.

Negator's remove the "successful" part, but the process was still carried out.

Well, I don't remember if I made this argument, but I looked at it as if a Normal Summon as non-refundable. Kinda like a resteraunt where no matter how bad the meal looks when you get it, they still charge you for another one if you send it back.

I don't see declaring a Normal/Tribute Summon being any different from a cost. Your budget for the cost each turn is one. Spend it, and it doesn't matter is the summon itself was negated, because you cost wasn't. The action was negated, but the cost is non-refundable.

 

[masterwoo0]

I think you just restated what I "stated" to DJ.

 

[anthonyj]

If you notice, the issue of "timing" is not mentioned in any of those rulings. "Timing" is artificially created when it comes to what we are talking about.

Also, because there is no clarification of where the monster is when the effect that negates his summon activates, your answers



are based more on assumption that rules.

Just because a monster hits the field, does not mean the summon cannot be negated. This isnt a race to see what effects can be activated the fastest, or, "if I get my monster out, they cant negate the summon".

The activation of Solemn Judgment or Horn of Heaven can still be activated because they "undo" the summon itself, and destroy the monster, so what is the difference between destroying the monster in hand and on the field? For some monsters, it can mean quite a bit, and I dont see a "in-between" area.

So your argument is that instead of a window which the rulings point to which would prevent the summon itself from actually putting the monster on the field, you would rather that the negators allow the monster to arrive on the field and then place the window directly before the effects kick in? Obviously due to the fact Continuous Effects do not activate until after the negators window you have to admit this is a rather tiny difference that could only matter to monsters like Sangan. The generally accepted rules that we have just gone over easily cover this. Your way would have to create one more on the field but not mechanic.

-Edit- We should really split this into it's own thread as it has become just one more endless discussion of the definition of "negate".

 

[masterwoo0]

The generally accepted rules that we have just gone over easily cover this. Your way would have to create one more on the field but not mechanic.

-Edit- We should really split this into it's own thread as it has become just one more endless discussion of the definition of "negate".

Generally accepted means that "not accepted by all" and open to discussion as it is not a rule, so no one is more correct.

I have never aGreed with terms that are not Yugioh Terms because there is no thread to tie them to anything "official". I can see when they are used to help clear away the fog of an explanation, but they are not THE explanation from anything officially given.

Window, time-stamping, tickets, are all terminology that is unofficially used to explain what we "know" and have accepted, but must use to explain to those who "dont know".

 

[Digital Jedi]

I'm not found of this splitting threads evertime we seemingly go off on a tangent idea. What were discussing is not about negation, but about the mechanics of a summon and a special summon. Which is key to understanding the timing involved in Dark World Monsters. If we split a thread every time we focus on a narrow aspect or the broader ramifications of a subject, we'll have ten times as many threads as we do now. I'd rather have one long thread with an in depth discussion, then thousands of threads that all begin in the middle of a conversation. This is one of the things that sets our forum apart.

 

[EmeraldDragon]

Thats a refreshing view to have Dj. Keeps things going and gets everything sorted....... for a little while at least.

It seems that while we all agree that certain things happen we just dont seem to agree completely on when and in some cases as regards to specific cards how certain events occur and their outcomes.


The terms we use may not always be "official" but going by the game mechanics as they are the terms we use simply give names to instances that occur. There will be people that have other names for them but in essence it is all the same. Disregarding a perfectly valid arguement simply because you are at odds with how "official" our terminology is does not help solve the arguement it merely extends it whereby we begin to argue about things that have no relevence to the original arguement whatsoeer.

 

[anthonyj]

Generally accepted means that "not accepted by all" and open to discussion as it is not a rule, so no one is more correct.

I have never aGreed with terms that are not Yugioh Terms because there is no thread to tie them to anything "official". I can see when they are used to help clear away the fog of an explanation, but they are not THE explanation from anything officially given.

Window, time-stamping, tickets, are all terminology that is unofficially used to explain what we "know" and have accepted, but must use to explain to those who "dont know".

Which is fine. We could call it the "unofficial rule of Garesh the Mighty Giant" for all I care. It is the concept which you seem to be taking exception to. And thus I communicate about it with the terminology that has been put forward in our discussions in order that we can all identify the concepts.

So however you would like things stated. Are you putting forth that the timing to activate Horn of Heaven is the same as to activate Bottomless Trap Hole and that only due to the fact it is a negator it is able to activate even though other Traps could not such as with Jinzo?

-Edit- DJ I'm fine with going where the flow of a thread takes us. I only asked because it was Tkwijet who started the thread and he seemed to want to get back to the original topic.