I need a recap on Dark World...

T

Tkwiget

Da Twiggy Man!
I'm pretty sure I'd rule correctly on these situations. Just want to make sure.

Situation A

Turn Player has Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World and Sillva, Warlord of Dark World in his hand. Player B has a Set Bottomless Trap Hole. Turn Player activates Card Destruction. Card Destruction resolves completely. Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World and Sillva, Warlord of Dark World are Special Summoned to the field. Player B responds by activating Bottomless Trap Hole. Both Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World and Sillva, Warlord of Dark World are destroyed and removed from play.

Situation B

Turn Player has an active Royal Oppression on the field. Player B has three Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World in his hand. Turn Player activates Card Destruction. All of the Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World activate at the same time to Special Summon onto the field. The Turn Player activates Royal Oppression to pay 800 Life Points to negate the Special Summoning of all three Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World.

Situation C

Turn Player has a Set Morphing Jar with three copies of Broww, Huntsman of Dark World in his hand. Turn Player Flip Summons his Morphing Jar and discards all three copies of Broww, Huntsman of Dark World. The Turn Player first draws his five new cards from Morphing Jar's effect and then draws one card per copy of Broww, Huntsman of Dark World that he discarded from Morphing Jar's effect.


Am I correct on all three of these situations? The first two situations I'm ruling on like that because Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World, Sillva, Warlord of Dark World, and Biiege, Vanguard of Dark World don't trigger their special summoning effect when entering a game phase, like Vampire Lord.

I've got a regional coming up that I'm judging and I need a recap on these situations. =)
 
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Oh, no harm meant, I simply mentioned it because we seem to be getting a lot of these requests lately. While I'm not trying to sound like I'm ignoring member requests or opinions, I wanted to remind everyone that our forum functions differently then others and that constant splitting could result in more confusion and splintered conversation. The dogmatic viewpoint of sticking to topic on other forums, I have noticed, is stymieing and actually hinders the discussion somewhat. I have found that in order to be an effective teacher, you must be willing to discuss X so a person can understand Y. We are the only forum I know of (and I've been hunting down as many Yu-Gi-Oh! forums as I can find) that actually explains a topic to people. The only forum I know of that is actually interested in educating people, instead of just showing off how much they know. Because of that, our topics have to wobble a little bit. There's always a reason we go places around here. And often it goes towards defining something "here" so that we can understand something "there".
 
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anthonyj said:
Are you putting forth that the timing to activate Horn of Heaven is the same as to activate Bottomless Trap Hole and that only due to the fact it is a negator it is able to activate even though other Traps could not such as with Jinzo?
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That's what Im saying. I wish I could find the ruling that talked bout activating effects during a summon, but I wouldnt even begin to want to search for it as the word "summon" will bring up nearly every post on the Judge list.

Anyway, all Im saying is, we established in the other 20 page (exaggeration, of course) thread that with Sangan, there had to be a reason why it wouldnt get its effect if it was flip summoned, and the summon negated. Mostly I think the agreement was that it was not recognized as a specific monster since it wasnt successfully summoned to the field face-up, so when it was sent, it was (my opinion now) as a blank card to the Graveyard since a face-down monster has no stats or (generally) effects.

No, that doesnt mean that it wasnt a monster, just that the summon was negated, therefore it was never recognized as a monster sent from the field.

Monsters summoned from hand that had their summon negated also would never be recognized as having "hit the field" since with the Sangan ruling, a monster basically must be successfully summoned or sent to the Graveyard as a monster to be recognized as "a monster" from the field. Which would explain why a face-down Sangan would still get its effect after Dark Hole.

The timing of Solemn Judgment in this case is different how? Sangan is clearly on the field already. He just needs to be flipped face-up manually. So how are we saying that a monster doesnt get played to the field first before we negate the summon? Can you negate a summon from hand? Where does that leave the effect to respond if not from hand? A in between area? I have never heard any kind of discussion other than from here about a zone that exist from hand to field.

So why or what is wrong with Solemn Judgment having the timing of Bottomless Trap Hole? A monster cannot activate his effect if he is not successfully summoned, and that is removed by SJ. Why would another mechanic be needed? No one has heartburn with effects that cause monsters to skip the damage calculation, like Adhesive Explosive. You understand that the effect prevents it from occuring. Solemn Judgment prevents the successful summon from occuring, even with Jinzo.
 
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But Horn of Heaven doesn't say anything about skipping or ignoring or "even though". It has pretty straight forward wording that it negates the summon. And we have rulings specifically stating that other traps can not be activated once Jinzo has been summoned because his effect is immediately active on the field. So Bottomless Trap Hole can't be activated because of Jinzo but Solemn Judgment and Horn of Heaven can because?

As to the Flip-Summon Sangan ruling. I still can't get to a better mechanics reason than BKSS. Sangan was properly set to the field and anything else destroying him without removing him from play or negating his effect would allow him to trigger when he reached the grave. From a mechanics standpoing the only logical explanation would be that there is some extra-dimensional space that the monster goes to when Flip Summoned that we were previously unaware of.
 
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I dont see this as being too hard to understand so why is it that this has stretched on so far.

From the moment you clearly announce a legal action that action is seen as being underway and most every judge will agree with me on that.

When you announce a legal summon it can be negated with the cost being paid eg the tributed monster going to the grave. If you choose not to then the summon goes ahead and then priority kicks in for effects and traps like bottomless.

Its just that simple.
 
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Look... If this doesnt end it, then I dont know what will.

We, meaning darn near EVERYONE, agree that for the most part, monsters do NOT have effects while in hand or deck, right?!!

So, if we are all in agreement, why is it that there are only 2 cards that can negate Jinzo's summon, those being Horn of Heaven and Solemn Judgment.

If it is a simple case of a monster not getting its effect until it hits the field, why would those be the only cards that can negate his summon?

Somehow, what you guys are saying doesnt quite make sense if he would never hit the field to negate their effects, then why can't you activate Compulsory Evacuation Device to bounce him back to hand, or for that matter, Bottomless Trap Hole or Trap Hole?

Jinzo has to hit the field, or it doesnt really matter that Solemn Judgment can negate Jinzo's summon. It negates all monsters summon, what makes Jinzo different? A window?
 
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A window? Probably the only possibly explaination. Not that I accept it, but I can't come up with anything better. Perhaps "response point" would be better than saying "a window."

From my understanding about summonings, the monster summoning has to resolve first in order to be considered successful. Keep in mind I'm fully aware that summonings have no spell speed at all. I'm merely using the term "resolve" to help explain my point.

There might very well be two response points to each summoning (granted as long as the summonings aren't back to back in the same chain block, like 3 Goldd) and Solemn Judgment, etc. would be allowed to activate at this response point. At the second response point is the stage in which the summoning has resolved and the monster is considered to have been successfully summoned. At this response point, cards like Torrential Tribute, Bottomless Trap Hole, Trap Hole, etc. can activate as long as a card effect isn't preventing this from happening.

Players are suppose to be declaring their summonings. When they declare the summoning, they're suppose to place the monster(s) (in case it's a Tribute Summon) in the correct game zones and wait to see (or ask rather) if the summoning is successful or not. Cards like Bottomless Trap Hole and Torrential Tribute can't activate the first response point like how Solemn Judgment and Horn of Heaven can.

All of that is just a little something to consider. Maybe I'm right or maybe I'm completely dead wrong (more like I'm wrong). Whatever the case may be, we don't have any definite template of all the game phases and mechanics around them. For example, like where response points and sub-steps are located.

However, I'm not about to dismiss any possiblities. Whatever sounds like the best answer to me is what I'll use. =)
 
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Well, I for one think everything you just said, if it even had the remotest possibility of being true, overcomplicates an already complicated game.

What are response points? Are they easier to explain than the nonexistant rules of Priority? Remember, if you cant explain a response point that has never been discussed EVER in any official circles, then how can you even try to bring something no ones knows exist, to a game where we dont even fully understand Priority?

That's the point I keep trying to make. This site is fastly becoming one of the Top Yugioh related sites out there. Pretty soon, that April Fool's joke will start looking more and more like the truth, and the least we can do is be more responsible when it comes to "admitting" that no one knows why you can activate Solemn Judgment to negate Jinzo's summon, because obviously, no one knows when Jinzo's effect accurately activates, or where he is in relationship to both cards interactions, "field, hand, somewhere in between?"

No one can say for sure, but we have a million explanations that make no real sense.

A: "There is a infinitessimal response point"
Q: "How big, and who decides when it ends?"

A: "Monster's are negated and destroyed in hand by Solemn Judgment before they can be summoned"
Q: "Why, and where is an example as such?"

A: "Only Jinzo establishes a timing for Solemn Judgment to be activated"
Q: "Huh, where in the rule book does it discuss timing of cards that negate summons?"


The simplest answer to why is, Jinzo gets summoned, you respond just like you do to any card that is summoned, Solemn Judgment negates the summon, and since Jinzo must be successfully summoned (which Solemn Judgment has erased) for his continuous effect to activate, he gets destroyed and removed from the field.

A monster placed on the field is not successful until all responses to its summon are complete. You cant resolve any effects the monster has until then, so why should he be considered properly fielded?
 
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A. Because many parts of this game have to be defined from the small bits and pieces we actually get rulings for.

A. Because nobody else is going to define it.

A. Because most sites are not going to allow a debate about such things for long before somebody says, "This is how it works in the asked about scenario, Topic Closed!"

There are many aspects of the game that have only extremely vague reference in the rulings. Does that mean they don't exist? Or that Konami/UDE likes plausible deniability when they change things?

Obviously Jinzo is not unique in when it's effect hits the field. We have similar rulings for many other continuous effects. You can certainly make the argument that the regular response window is where you would activate Horn of Heaven but that requires that Horn of Heaven can be activated in a response window that has been by official ruling closed to other Trap cards. Thus you have Shifted the burden of the mechanics to Horn of Heaven can be used BKSS.

We typically want to clarify and quantify to the best of our ability how it makes sense from a mechanical point of view for everything to operate. We highlight things that don't work within that framework and hopefully get them looked at by the "officials" to see if the ruling might have been in error (boy that never happens).

We will never get an "Official Comprehensive Guide to playing Yugioh". I'd be happy to pay good money, hell possibly significant amounts of good money, to be wrong. But from everything I've seen it will have been dropped by both Konami and UDE long before anybody is allowed to publish such a thing. Every time I hear complaints that the terminology we use here isn't "Official", I want that to include an answer for what we should be using.

Mechanically our Reasoning fits the rulings, it doesn't require special dispensation for any card that doesn't include text which you'd think would need to be there in order to perform the function that it does. If UDE ever does give us some better explanations and terminology I'll use them immediately. Until then this is what we've got.
 
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Wow. I'm gone for 8 hours or so...

Anyway, the example you're referring to, woo0 (Normal or Special Summoning from the hand after paying cost, etc.), is not exactly the issue. For the record, woo0 is correct. A card that is being Summoned through no effect other than its own cannot be negated unless or until it hits the field first.

Player declares intent to summon.
Player Tributes one monster to the Graveyard.
Player places "Jinzo" on the field and looks at Opponent.
Opponent sees that Player wishes to have "Jinzo" on the field and decides that he likes his Trap Cards too much.
Opponent activates "Solemn Judgment" and "Jinzo" is out of luck. "Jinzo" is placed in the Graveyard.

A player is not going to decide to negate a summon if he doesn't know what is being summoned. The decision to negate is made after the card is seen by both players. The card is not considered "successfully Summoned" however, until neither player decides NOT to activate "Horn of Heaven" or "Solemn Judgment" or "Royal Oppression" (depending on the type of Summon being performed). THEN, cards that activate after a successfull Summon can be activated.

That being said (and back to the topic), if "Premature Burial" is activated, then "Solemn Judgment" OR "Royal Oppression" can be chained to the effect and the monster never hits the field. "Dark World" monsters are summoned by an "effect that Special Summons a monster," so "Royal Oppression" can be chained to that effect (the monster's effect) to prevent it from ever hitting the field.
 
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The point Im trying to make is, if you surf 10 Yugioh Sites, they may all have their own Terminology for things they explain. What this site refers to as "Tickets" for attack, another site may call "Counters".

Try meshing those together when two duelist are using what they have learned about attacking. Then, of course, you have to deal with someone who is even more limited in their knowledge that thinks, "Everytime I attack, I have to have a ticket, or I cant attack..." Now his next question to a Judge, "How do I get an attack ticket? "Is it an effect?"

That sends the Judge to the FAQ's searching for a "ticket" he will never find.

I know its far fetched, but some people take everything we say literally and dont see the meaning behind the term because we have gotten pretty intricate with the depth of explanation.

This should be a teaching site more than anything else, but when we teach, we need to ensure what we leave as a resource, doesnt have a limited definition, or can only be understood by the individual that coined the phrase.
 
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Absolutely correct. There is still a huge amount of uncertainty with the basic mechanics and a detailed discussion of the hows and whys can bring out the questions and instruct others in the finer points of the game.

While we might not always agree on the minutiae, breaking it all down and discussing the individual parts is actually the best way I know of to immerse people in the game logic and ground them in the knowledge it takes to move beyond just knowing the correct answer to most questions and actually start to see the interactions and basic ideas behind it all.
 
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Just another thing to point out for anybody that was argueing that nothing can interrupt a summon from in hand.

The effects of "Pole Position" and "Big Bang Shot" still apply. These effects are continuous effects, so the Appropriate monster will be destroyed after the cost is payed but before "Anteatereatingant" is Special Summoned.
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Gee, that sure looks like something can happen in between the tribute/cost and the monster actually arriving on the field.

Also, from the argument on timing being the same for Bottomless Trap Hole and Horn of Heaven.

The opponent would have to activate "Solemn Judgment" to negate the Summon before targets are chosen for Mobius's effect.
Click to expand...

Now how would that be at all possible if the timing for Bottomless Trap Hole and Solemn Judgment are the same?
 
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anthonyj said:
Just another thing to point out for anybody that was argueing that nothing can interrupt a summon from in hand.



Gee, that sure looks like something can happen in between the tribute/cost and the monster actually arriving on the field.

Also, from the argument on timing being the same for Bottomless Trap Hole and Horn of Heaven.



Now how would that be at all possible if the timing for Bottomless Trap Hole and Solemn Judgment are the same?
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I notice that both those effects are already active on the field. I stated that you cannot "play" a card (from hand or a set) in the middle of a summon. How are you "playing" an already active Pole Position or Big Bang Shot??????????????????????????????

The ruling about Solemn Judgment is SIMPLE involving Mobius the Frost Monarch. Its obvious he is ON the field and trying to activate. You can't use Solemn Judgment to chain to a monster's effect after you have let him activate his effect. Solemn Judgment is NOT Divine Wrath, is what that is saying. Doesnt that fall into the realm of "missed timing"?????????????????????????????

The timing for Solemn Judgment is the same as Bottomless Trap Hole because you are responding to a summon. The only DIFFERENCE between the two is that you can chain Bottomless Trap Hole, whereas you cannot chain Solemn Judgment because you are negating the summon so what are you chaining too? The monster will never activate his effect because that would mean that you allowed him to be successful in his summon.

I told you before. You can summon a monster to the field. And the monster can either be successfully summoned, or not successfully summoned, but that doesnt change the fact that a summon, NOT a set, was performed. Nowhere does it say that a summon is always hand and hand with a successful one.


You really shouldnt use part of a ruling that doesnt explain your point, or, at least try to explain "why" it is a valid argument. An apple isnt an apple because its not an orange.
 
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