Just some rulings I've been wondering about..

T

Tkwiget

Da Twiggy Man!
Was looking at my deck and was thinking of some ways that people would counter it and one card did cross my mind. Mystic Swordsman LV2. I use Legendary Jujitsu Master. So this is my first question.


Turn Player Normal Summons Mystic Swordsman LV2 and attacks Player B's face down Legendary Jujitsu Master, then wouldn't it be save to assume Legendary Jujitsu Master would never activate? Since it was destroyed by an effect face down.

Also if I activate Karate Man's effect and then activate Skill Drain after Karate Man resolved will Karate Man's effect be negated or just the part of it being destroyed?
 
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It seems to me that these two monsters still engaged in battle and the Damage Step is stll entered. Only Damage Calculation is skipped. I see no reason why Legendary Jujitsu Master's effect would be negated.

Are you chaining Skill Drain to Karate Man's effect? If so, then Karate Man would fail to resolve properly and not be destroyed. But, if you've already let it resolve before Skill Drain was activated then I can't see it negating it or preventing it's destruction.
 
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#1 Nothing official available. I could honestly see this going either way. Mystic Swordsman LV2 did "battle" with Legendary Jujitsu Master and there is nothing stating that the effect couldn't activate in the graveyard, but an excellent question to post to the Judge's List for clarification.

#2 Karate Man would return to 1000 ATK and would still blow himself up in the End Phase as that is a Condition being placed on the card when the effect is activated.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
The ruling for Legendary Jujitsu Master says that "if he is destroyed, or removed from play, his effect still applies", so it doesnt matter if he is "destroyed" by Mystic Swordsman LV2. He sent Legendary Jujitsu Master to the Graveyard as a destroyed card.
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I agree. The only question is whether the effect of Mystic Swordsman "interrupted" the "Battle". See where I am going with this. There is plenty of room for a ruling on either side. There was an attack declared but then the effect kicked in and that is what destroyed LJM. It remains to be seen whether the portion of "Battle" that was involved is sufficient to meet the requirements for Legendary Jujitsu Master's effect.
 
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I would say that even though there is no Damage Step, he still returns to the top of the Deck if he destroys Jujitsu Master. That is just a point of reference. It could just as well say, "At the end of the Battle Phase" and still be correctly applied.

Just because some effects skip a step doesnt always mean that it prevents an action from taking place.
 
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A monster that battles with this Defense Position card is returned to the top of the owner's Deck at the end of the Damage Step.

you never entered the damage step therefore you never did battle. all logic thus far on this post has been invalid.




if you activated Skill Drain in main phase 2 then you are golden. Karate Man isn't destroyed and his attack will go back down to 1000.

the reason Karate Man will not destroy itself is that it is a mandatory effect that will resolve during the end phase. Since Skill Drain is active karate's effect will be negated.
 
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exiledforcefreak said:
you never entered the damage step therefore you never did battle. all logic thus far on this post has been invalid.
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Pretty bold statement for someone who doesnt work directly for UDE.

I always thought that if it didnt come from the top down, there was still room for discussion...

You still did Battle. The Monster is just destroyed by Effect and not Battle Damage.

You had to Battle it in order to destroy it by effect. It didnt just "happen".
 
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Never mind the fact that "Defense Position" means face-up or face-down. It didnt say that it had to be flipped face-up to calculate damage.

To me, this is not a case of, "Mystic Swordsman LV2 destroys a face-down Giant Rat". It was destroyed as a result of Mystic Swordsman LV2's effect, not battle, so it wouldnt get the effect.

Legendary Jujitsu Master was destroyed by effect AS a result of battle.

It would be a different matter if Mystic Swordsman LV2 could use his effect without declaring an attack.

1. If "Legendary Jujitsu Master" is destroyed, removed from play, or flipped face-down by the effect of the monster he battles with, "Legendary Jujitsu Master"'s effect is still applied and the monster is returned to the top of the Deck.

Which means he can battle Mystic Swordsman LV2, or Dark Magician of Chaos/Lesser Fiend and still get the effect.

Which also means, Zaborg the Thunder Monarch cannot be returned to the top of the Deck if he uses his effect once he is tribute summoned.
 
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If what everyone is saying is true, then doesn't Legendary Jujitsu Master seem kind of powerful? It sounds like the only way to avoid the effect of LJMaster is to destroy him by an effect (that doesn't involve battle). Which puts your opponent in an awkward spot.

I tend to agree with all the rationale that Mystic Swordsman LV2 is still "battling" LJMaster because you can't get the effect of Mystic LV2 without declaring an attack.

This thread is particularly interesting to me since I'm considering him for a deck.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Never mind the fact that "Defense Position" means face-up or face-down. It didnt say that it had to be flipped face-up to calculate damage.
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Forget damage calculation, I'm thinking in far more simple terms:
Bar Big Shield Gardna what other monsters have their effect active on the field while they're face down? Is Legendary Jujitsu Master a graveyard effect, clearly not, so how can it have its effect if it's destroyed while still face down? :confused:
 
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Well, Jathro, I have always considered him powerful, and this doesn't change that. However, I see no reason to believe his effect can activate face down. While Mystic did battle with him, it seems to me that still doesn't give him the right to break the rules, and have an effect while face down. Of course, where does that leave big-shield gardna?

-pssvr
 
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3. Damage Step:
Sub-step 1: Some Trigger-Effect will activate and resolve now.
(Examples are "Sasuke Samurai", "Paladin of White Dragon", "Mystic Swordsman LV2", and "Mystic Swordsman LV 4").
Sub-step 2: Flip target card face-up if face down.

You see we are already in the Damage Step. The battle can not be interrupted anymore, and no replay will occur.
So Legendary Jujitsu Master's effect is applied.
When the attack doesnt get negated or a replay doesnt occure before we enter Battle Step then the monster is returned.
 
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Fury said:
3. Damage Step:
Sub-step 1: Some Trigger-Effect will activate and resolve now.
(Examples are "Sasuke Samurai", "Paladin of White Dragon", "Mystic Swordsman LV2", and "Mystic Swordsman LV 4").
Sub-step 2: Flip target card face-up if face down.

You see we are already in the Damage Step. The battle can not be interrupted anymore, and no replay will occur.
So Legendary Jujitsu Master's effect is applied.
When the attack doesnt get negated or a replay doesnt occure before we enter Battle Step then the monster is returned.
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But how come LJM is then getting his effect while face down, the only cards normally capable of this are those which specifically state they can.
 
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"with this Defense Position card"
This could mean face-up and face-down. It didnt says that it has to be face-up. This could easily be an exception to the "face-down means no effect" ruling.
 
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Fury said:
"with this Defense Position card"
This could mean face-up and face-down. It didnt says that it has to be face-up. This could easily be an exception to the "face-down means no effect" ruling.
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Normally an exception to the general rules will however state in someway that it is an exception:
E.g. Big Shield Guardna
Negate the activation of a Spell Card that designates this 1 face-down monster....
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Or the Gate Guardian components:
You can only activate this card's effect during your opponent's damage calculation....
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(was the first time we had the ability to activate ignition monster effects during the battle phase).
 
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Lol, wow you guys

First I'd like to put my insight on something.

Those of you who think Mystic Swordsman LV2 would return to the deck I'll have to disagree with for a short minute.

There's a HUGE difference between two other cards you guys failed to mention. Those two cards are Drillroid and Ninja Grandmaster Sasuke. They destroy LJM while LJM is face up defense by an effect. However the only difference between those two cards is Drillroid. It only requires the monster to be in defense.

Now think of it like this. I attack your face down LJM with Drillroid, YES my Drillroid will return because Drillroid doesn't keep LJM from flipping face up. There for logically, if Mystic Swordsman LV2 attacks a face down LJM it will not return because LJM's effect never activated in the first place. Unless it's some mysterious new Graveyard effect that I don't know about I'll bet money on the fact that Mystic Swordsman LV2 owns face down LJM.

I'd like to get Chaosruler or Danker's opinion on this one since none of us can get to some agreement about this question. The reason I brought it up is because you guys are going to need to know the ruling to this situation. People are going to use LJM more often in decks and this ruling is needed horribly bad.
 
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