Last Will and Priority // Levia Dragon

[soulwarrior]

Hi there,

a duelist from Germany came up with a very interesting idea:

-> play Last Will
--> now the card creates a 'state' // whenever a monster on your side of the field is sent to your graveyard, you can special summon another monster from your deck with ATK <= 1500

-> now offer a monster on your side of the field as a Tribute to special summon Levia-Dragon - Daedalus to the field

the question is:

Can I now use priority to use the effect of the Levia Dragon before a monster is special summoned due to the effect of Last Will?

Therefore, FIRST send all cards to the Grave except the Dragon. THEN special summon a monster with Last Will's effect.

MY OPINION:

I thought no.
The 'state' created by Last Will can be compared with an continuous effect which is already on the field.
It doesn't use the chain and will be resolved BEFORE any other effect after the summon can be activated.

It's like when there's an already active Level Limit - Area B on the field and you summon Spell Canceller
-> FIRST apply the effect of the already active continuous Spell Card (switch SC to Defense Position)
-> THEN apply the effect of the summoned Spell Canceller (negate all Spell Cards effects)

soul

 

[novastar]

Soul Exchange does not have a triggered effect. It's a continuous effect state.

I think I just lost myself.

My thoughts exactly,

Even though Last Will seems to be the ultimate work in progress. It is supposed to be a continuous "condition" that does not use the chain. It is not triggered.

So if I had activated Soul Exchange and already had a monster face up on the field....and so did my opponent, if I go to tribute for Cannon Soldier's effect must I use my opponent's monster as a tribute at that time or lose the effect of Soul Exchange? Or could I tribute my own monster first, then activate Cannon Soldier's effect later in the turn using Soul Exchange's floating effect and tribute my opponent's monster at that time?

This not the same thing.

Soul Exchange is targeted, as opposed to Last Will, other than the "state" idea, the 2 effects are very different. It is also a replacement effect NOT a conditional (trigger-like) effect.

In fact the exact example used in this thread shows that it even if it was a trigger, it is mandatory, because optional triggers cannot be used when you tribute.

In the end you "choose" when to utilize Soul Exchange, conversely you must use Last Will upon the next instance of one of your monsters being sent to the graveyard.

That is how its always been understood.

 

[John Danker]

I think a lot of you are missing what I was trying to do....that is, find some card that I can compare to Last Will....not that necessarily has all the exact same qualities. There doesn't seem to be another comparable.

They both have a floating effect. That's what first drew my thoughts toward Soul Exchange. I'm was just thinking out loud, not stating they're the same in every manner.

It is wording of the FAQ itself that has caused me the thought process. The two paragraphs don't jell. I'd always played Last Will exactly as others her had described until I read the FAQ. It's suppose to clear things up not make things foggy right? <smirk>

 

[novastar]

Well i'm going with your comparison, and explaining why it is different. In order to see how it compares.

Soul Exchange is probably the closest, Last Turn is also one that could be used (in respect to the condition part).

<smile>I'm giving you my thoughts, not bashing yours. </smile>

 

[John Danker]

novastar,

I really DO appreciate your thoughts...and those of everyone else as well. That's one of the reasons these forums are so important, for all to be able to think things through, have them explained, reason out, and discuss.

It's often times very difficult to express a tone of voice, demenor, or body language in text! Sometimes we can take things poorly when indeed they are meant with nothing but a nurturing and helpful way.

One of the difficulties of being a judge in general is that we seem to be expected to know everything, every card, and every situation that can and will occur in everyone's deck and the one that faces them in a heartbeat. When we don't people are quick to point out, "Heck...I knew THAT right away. I'm the one that should be judging tournaments"

Truth is we all have our times when something doesn't make sense or we just have trouble reasoning it out. Personally I tend to be a very visual person. I have a difficult time processing things on text alone (though it may not be evident from my long winded posts!) While I am more than happy to...and feel it's my job to help others out in the game when I can, I too at times need to have confusing or seemingly contradictory text explained to me. The FAQ text concerning Last Will is one of those times.

There have been a number of times when the way everyone has been playing something or the way it's been ruled previously has been reversed. If we attempt to explore the possibilites and reasons combined with the mechanics we often stumble upon these situations. This thought pattern isn't for everyone and certainly those who like a place for everything and everything in it's place will be driven crazy by such thinking!

That all said, I still haven't gotten clarification on the Last Will ruling from UDE. All I got was a personal reply saying, "Read the FAQ on Last Will"....which is, of course, why the question arouse in my mind to begin with!

Okay, now I'm rambling...it's Friday, I'm tired, and the work day is done for me <deep sigh> Enjoy the weekend!

 

[MadHatter]

Even though Last Will seems to be the ultimate work in progress. It is supposed to be a continuous "condition" that does not use the chain. It is not triggered.

<barf> <- Not at you, your post or your explanation Nova, but just at trying to explain that concept to younger players.

I know of no definitive reason why your post would not be true. I had likened it to Witch and Shining Angel effects which use the chain. But Last Will is definitely a bit different. If it doesn't use the chain and it's something that "just happens", the special summon can be responded to, in which case the turn player should still have priority to activate Levia's ignition effect.

I think a lot of you are missing what I was trying to do....that is, find some card that I can compare to Last Will....not that necessarily has all the exact same qualities. There doesn't seem to be another comparable.

Lady Panther and Return of the Doomed. Don't expect much to extrapolate on with their few rulings though.

 

[MadHatter]

After reading Lady Panther and Return of the Doomed a bit more, I could see where the may be different than Last Will. It may be that Last Will is just different from everything in a Fiber Jarish kind of way too.

But, I went ahead and submitted this question to the judge list:

Player A has Gemini Elf, Lady Panther and Sangan all face up.
Player B has Summoned Skull and Magician of Faith, both in face up attack position.
Player A tributes Lady Panther in main phase 1 to activate her effect, which it seems kind of floats throughout the rest of the turn.

Player A attacks Magician of Faith with Gemini Elf. Player B activates Staunch Defender, forcing Gemini Elf to attack Summoned Skull instead.

Player A, knowing Sangan will have to attack Summoned Skull next, does not want to use Lady Panther's effect yet.

Mechanics questions:
1) Is Lady Panther's lingering effect (of putting the monster destroyed in battle on top of the deck) considered a trigger effect or continuous?
2) Is Lady Panther's effect mandatory? Can the turn player not use the effect even if the condition is met?
3) Can the turn player choose to use the effect at any time the condition is met for the rest of that turn, OR does the turn player *have to* use the effect the *first time* the condition is met?
4) When Lady Panther's effect is used, does it use the chain block?

 

[novastar]

1) Is Lady Panther's lingering effect (of putting the monster destroyed in battle on top of the deck) considered a trigger effect or continuous?

It is actually a Spell Speed 1 Ignition Effect, it can only be used in your Main Phase. you offer her as a tribute.

It is conditional though, you cannot activate it unless at least one monster of yours has been destroyed in battle and sent to the graveyard during that turn.

2) Is Lady Panther's effect mandatory? Can the turn player not use the effect even if the condition is met?

Ignition Effects are always optional.

3) Can the turn player choose to use the effect at any time the condition is met for the rest of that turn, OR does the turn player *have to* use the effect the *first time* the condition is met?

At any time after, as long as you are in the Main Phase (so Main Phase 2).

4) When Lady Panther's effect is used, does it use the chain block?

Main Phase (2) and yes it does.

 

[Raijinili]

Even though Last Will seems to be the ultimate work in progress. It is supposed to be a continuous "condition" that does not use the chain. It is not triggered.

The August 18 post from the Judge list says otherwise.

At this time, the "Last Will" wants to activate, but its effect will need to
start a new chain, so it will wait until "Monster Gate" has resolved before it
will activate.

 

[MadHatter]

It is conditional though, you cannot activate it unless at least one monster of yours has been destroyed in battle and sent to the graveyard during that turn.

That's not true. Lady Panther and Return of the Doomed may be activated in main phase 1 just like Last Will. There is no current UDE ruling on the official site, but it's in the Netrepâ„¢ pdf 6.0 and has been a rule since *the original* PDF file. So if Konami changed it, no one has officially said so.

Main Phase (2) and yes it does.

Yes, the ignition effect uses the chain, but I was referring to the floating effect of putting the monster back on the deck. Rather similar to Last Will's summoning effect.

The rest of the answers didn't really apply to the situation I was referring to, so I won't post further on them.

 

[MadHatter]

From the official UDE site:
Return of the Doomed
"This card is activated during your Main Phase 1 or 2 and creates a state that lasts until the end of your turn. "

Lady Panther works the same way.

 

[novastar]

The August 18 post from the Judge list says otherwise.

This card is notorious for being a work in progress. Yes thats what they are saying. It is triggered.

 

[novastar]

From the official UDE site:
Return of the Doomed
"This card is activated during your Main Phase 1 or 2 and creates a state that lasts until the end of your turn. "

Lady Panther works the same way.

Yes, but Return of the Doomed works during the End Phase "at the end of this turn", unlike Lady Panther. You choose the monster you are going to return at that time, in the End Phase when it triggers. My guess is that it does use the chain during the End Phase.

As for as Lady Panther, the only thing i see in the Netrepâ„¢ Files 6.0b is:

"The effect of "Lady Panther" may be activated only in the controller's Main Phase 1 or Main Phase 2."

The original PDF says this:

"You can use this effect during Main Phase 1 or 2, like "Last Will"."

If it is as you say, and its similar to Last Will, then it will trigger when the monster is sent to the graveyard, similar to Witch and Sangan. It would use the chain. Then the question arises of whether you can choose of not when to to use the effect.

 

[MadHatter]

Even though Last Will seems to be the ultimate work in progress. It is supposed to be a continuous "condition" that does not use the chain. It is not triggered.

If it is as you say, and its similar to Last Will, then it will trigger when the monster is sent to the graveyard, similar to Witch and Sangan. It would use the chain.

When I posted the Lady Panther scenario, Raijinili hadn't posted the Last Will using the chain part. So one of the things I was trying to get answered was does Lady Panther's return to the top of the deck effect go on the chain or just happen (in which case it may only be responded to.) In the similar direction John was going, I was trying to use Lady Panther's mechanics to help with Last Will.

Though I wouldn't rule out Last Will may be different than Lady Panther/Return of the Doomed due to Last Will's wording and due to Last Will may be in a Fiber Jar-ish class of itself

Then the question arises of whether you can choose of not when to to use the effect.

Which puts us right back at the beginning of the Lady Panther and also the Last Will questions.

 

[John Danker]

. Then the question arises of whether you can choose of not when to to use the effect.

Last Will is an optional effect. Combined with the wording in the FAQ about the floating state lasting until it's used or the end of the turn, whichever comes first.....is what lead me to believe that it could be used when a second monster is sent to the graveyard after Last Will's activation to begin with.

 

[novastar]

Last Will is an optional effect. Combined with the wording in the FAQ about the floating state lasting until it's used or the end of the turn, whichever comes first.....is what lead me to believe that it could be used when a second monster is sent to the graveyard after Last Will's activation to begin with.

If you can use it with a tribute then it is not optional. It is the first available instance

 

[novastar]

When I posted the Lady Panther scenario, Raijinili hadn't posted the Last Will using the chain part. So one of the things I was trying to get answered was does Lady Panther's return to the top of the deck effect go on the chain or just happen (in which case it may only be responded to.) In the similar direction John was going, I was trying to use Lady Panther's mechanics to help with Last Will.

Though I wouldn't rule out Last Will may be different than Lady Panther/Return of the Doomed due to Last Will's wording and due to Last Will may be in a Fiber Jar-ish class of itself

You can think i'm a complete idoit here MadHatter thats your choice. It is UDE that is doing this.

i've had a convo with <i>bishop</i> in the past about Last Will (actually i can dig it up), in which he stated to me that Last Will is a constant WIP. It has gone back and forth for a long time.

The latest on Last Will is that it is triggered. John's statements do not prove that it that it is optional, he wishes to interpret it that way...which is fine (similar to the priority discussions). I am a firm believer that it is NOT optional but triggered at the first instance. Lady Panther (if the same) seems to follow suit.

 

[lorric]

So Guys , what is the solution (I'm the German who had the Question to Last Will and Levia)?

If i interpret everything correctly written here, then the conclusion is still open? Obviously the option of activating Last Will, tributing für Levia, wiping the field with it and then summoning a monster for Last Will would be the most satisfactory

lorric

 

[masterwoo0]

If you can use it with a tribute then it is not optional. It is the first available instance

Its the first available instance, BUT, it is still optional as to whether you use the effect of Last Will or not. If you do not use the effect, then it disappears.

 

[John Danker]

Okay, I knew I wasn't out of my mind. I HAD seen a post on this subject before.

This is a post from the old Yahoo judge's site.......


Message 9889 of 11037


From: "Gary H" <fantasyzz@a...>
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004 1:51 am
Subject: Last Will


1: when you play Last Will, do you designate a monster for the effect?
or does the Last Will effect just hang out until one of your
monsters are removed from the field and put in your graveyard?

there was something going around a while back that spoke of that you
designated a monster for Last Will's effect.

just verifying....

2: also, does the effect automatically trigger, or can you choose for
the effect NOT to trigger and save it for a different monster at a
later time in the turn?





Answer:

1) You do not designate a monster with this card's effect. After resolving "Last
Will," the next time a monster of yours on your side of the field is sent to the
Graveyard, you activate the effect of "Last Will."


2) It is optional.

---------------------------------
Curtis Schultz
Official Netrepâ„¢
CurtisSchultz_netrep@h...

 

[MadHatter]

You can think i'm a complete idoit here MadHatter thats your choice. It is UDE that is doing this.

Nova, I do not think you are an idiot. Not at all, this has nothing to do with you personally.

i've had a convo with <i>bishop</i> in the past about Last Will (actually i can dig it up), in which he stated to me that Last Will is a constant WIP. It has gone back and forth for a long time.

This wouldn't be the first thing in the last 6 months to be a work in progress.

The latest on Last Will is that it is triggered.

In Post #21 you said it was not triggered.

John's statements do not prove that it that it is optional, he wishes to interpret it that way...which is fine (similar to the priority discussions). I am a firm believer that it is NOT optional but triggered at the first instance. Lady Panther (if the same) seems to follow suit.

Right, there has been no definitive answer on Last Will and to me we are all just giving our best educated guesses, trying to extrapolate using other rulings/cards. I'd agree with your conversation with bishop that LW is a work in progress. I think quite a few of mechanics and rulings in this game have been and still are being thought out by the definitive source (KOJ.)

But priority is pretty much done for TCG and there is, at this time, one valid interpretation. We've seen multiple official posts on priority after summoning and in starting a responce chain after a chain ends.

EDIT: Whoops, I started my reply before John's last post, which at least leads us to believe it's optional. Though one could split that optional as being A) if you don't use it you can't later or B) you can use it later if the condition gets met again. I'd still go with the latter, but that would just be my opinion.