Level Modulation VS. Level UP!

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krazykidpsx

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okay, seriously since I saw that Level Modulations ruling consisted of only reborning stuff that was "Properly" Lv Summoned, it got me thinking. UDE MAKES ALOT OF SHADI RULINGS!!!!! but enough of that, today im bringing the evidence for me to belive why said ruling should be appealed.

First lets study Level Modulation:
[ycard="EEN-EN039" said:
Level Modulation[/ycard]]
Your opponent draws 2 cards. Special Summon 1 monster from your Graveyard that includes "LV" in its card name, ignoring the Summoning conditions. The monster that was Special Summoned by this effect cannot attack, nor activate or apply its effect this turn.
Click to expand...

OKay the first sentence is preaty basic, the opponent draws 2 cards. I belive nobody is subject to not aggre with me that its basically "Opponent you draw 2 cards from your deck" basic, easy thats kool.

the next sence though is the one that gets to me.

"Special Summon 1 monster from your Graveyard that includes "LV" in its card name, Ignoring the Summoning Conditions."

that seems basic, I pick a monster that has LV in its card name from MY graveyard and special summon it to the field ignoring all its summoning conditions. Seems easy right? I pick I summon creature comes in with no restrictions other than the ones this card will place on it.

the next sentence is preaty easy.
"The monster that was Special Summoned by this effect cannot attack, nor activate or apply its effect this turn."

okay, so for this turn that i summon said creature through this card cant do anything, period no its and or buts about it. Of course this is while its face up currently. But its not bad its only non active for my turn, no biggy.

Now lets analize Level Up!

[ycard="SOD-EN041" said:
Level Up![/ycard]]
Send 1 face-up monster on your side of the field that has "LV" in its card name to the Graveyard to activate this card. Special Summon the monster that is written in the card text of that monster from your hand or Deck, ignoring the Summoning conditions.
Click to expand...

Hmm, lets see here..."Send 1 Face-Up Monster on your side of the field that has "LV" in its card name to the graveyard to active this card."

Okay that seems interesting i can only send Face-Up Monsters with "LV" in its card name to the graveyard as a cost to activate this card. That doesnt seem to hard right? were smart we get it ONLY that type can be used.

Next sentence... " Special Summon the Monster that is Written in the card text of that monster from your hand or deck, Ignoring the Summoning Condition."

HEY! there is that line again "Ignoring the summoning Condition." But lets not get ahead of our selfs, it says "Special summon said monster that is written on the card text of the card you used to activate the card from your hand or deck"... That seems preaty easy, i send Horus Lv 6 to get HOrus 8 from my hand or deck since its the card written on the card HOrus LV 6. preaty easy so far, but hold on, Im not allowed to do that without the next line of text "IGNORING THE SUMMONING CONDITION"

the part I want to compare is the "Ignoring the summoning Condition" both cards state the same thing. But the difference is that one comes from the graveyard and the other from the hand or deck.

now, if we were to add the word "Graveyard" in the card Level Up! wouldnt the card do about the exact same thing that Level Modulation would? would there be a difference then?

See I'm a very reasonable person I can listen to reason, it wont affect me, I do as I am told BUT (yes, I know i over used the 3 letters) why is it that in 1 card you can do said effect and with another you can't?

Sit back and think for a bit before you reply instantly. The cards have the exact same 4 words in them near the end of the rules text. But both interact differently.

another thing I want to come to understand is why, do somecards you only do the effect as much as you possibly can, example of this would be Toon Table of Content, You can use it to look for a card with Toon but not neceserally need to place it in your hand or find it. BUT with card like Triangle ecstacy Spark were you dont neceserally need a Harpy lady sisters the ruling stands that you cannot activate it unless HLS is on the field.

If its a "Cause we said so and your stupid" kinda thing then its fine. Ill understand...(no really I will, I just personally belive that sending people on wild goose chace's is not funny)
 
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Well, this is a lame answer that likely has no bearing on reality, but most of the "fan" translations I've seen for these cards actually use different words, even though our official ones don't. I've been pondering this for a while (can you tell?), even since I saw the first translation of what became Level Modulation for us.

Using DMCOMET as the easiest reference to find at 2:30am ...

Level Up! says "negate any Special Summoning requirement"
Level Modulation says "ignore the Summoning condition"

If this holds true to the original Japanese, that's certainly a big difference. Of course, now you get into arguments that maybe requirements can't be "negated", etc. etc. etc. The most likely thing is that the word/concept used on one or both of these cards does not directly translate into English, so we end up with them both saying "ignore". (OK, that's a stretch, but it sounds good)

Not looking for the start of a Priority-class debate here, just pointing out that perhaps Level Up! is the problem child, not Level Modulation.

I also realize DMCOMET is as often wrong as they are right ...
 
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yea the problem is we cant go by fantranslation. Though it would point out 2 different texts. In the end we follow what UDE prints up, not what DMcomet or Edo ever say. which sometimes is why were like huh??

with its current text if its suppose to be different then im asuming that there is in needed of a good errata.
 
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What was your beef again? This is not an UDE problem, although I would have liked UDE to clear the text up better (in reality that too would have caused a nightmare) but this is a Konami problem. Konami never had a stablized terminology list, let alone rulings that stuck with continuity with other cards with similiar wording. There only Reasoning behind it to fix these problems is:

Because we say so kid, now shut up and buy the darn cards, niyah niyah niyah niyah niyah.

Personally there is no way of fixing the card to make it sense. Although it could make sense if they did, it would automatically become either A.) Banned or B.) Limited to 1 since everyone would get the idea to dump and recurision it. You think using Level Up! on a Silent Magician LV4 is bad, wait till you dump a Horus LV8 and get it back. I always felt this card was made for Armed Dragon. You Special Summon Armed Dragon LV7, Tribute it for Armed Dragon LV10. As for your other problems with cards, cards need certain requirements for activation. I believe the Harpie situation needs Harpie Lady Sisters on the field in order for the card to be activated, not resolved. Toon Table of Contents on the other hand will resolve its effect as best it can during resolution. You cannot automatically know your Deck's contents when you activate the card in the first place.
 
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The only thing that makes sense to me, which I still dont agree with, is, if you ignore something, do you really know what happened?

Think about when you ignore someone trying to talk to you. Are you really paying attention to their every word? Probably not. So how can you know what it is that they are trying to say or do?

If you ignore the summoning condition of the card, sure it gets special summoned, but did it get summoned by its effect, or by the effect of another card?

We know that most lower level "LV's" can be reborn with Monster Reborn, Call of the Haunted, Premature Burial, Autonomous Action Unit, Spear Cretin, The Shallow Grave, etc...

With that many ways to bring a LV Monster back, A card like Ultimate Insect LV5, will not get his effect unless he is specifically summoned by LV3's Effect, and not by Level Up!'d LV3, or by Graveyard recursion.

Horus LV6 still gets his effect if special summoned from the Graveyard, and if he destroys a monster, he can be sent to summon LV8. If he is Level Up!'d, he can bring out LV8 as well, but he ignored the summoning condition which stated that he must destroy a monster.

Nowhere in the ruling for Level Up! does it state that the monster is considered to be properly summoned. Most of the time, this hasn't ever been an issue since you could still reborn the lower level monster's, and the upper level were Nomi's, so we never cared.

But now we have a card that looks for that to have happened, and the glaring statement that we have thrown in our face is, "Ignored the Summoning condition".

There is no way around the fact that it doesnt make sense that you cant summon a Nomi LV Monster with it.

It's just an attempt by the powers that be, to clean up a mess without changing the cards text. Sure, you cant know if it was summoned properly, but the card expressly says to ignore it, anyway.

Sometimes I have to wonder, "Why bother?" People only seem to agree with a ruling, when it's effects that they don't care for.

What really sucks is that most of the time, if the ruling holds out, you could never summon the lowest level monsters at ALL using Level Modulation if they went to the Graveyard by effects like Needle Worm or Card Destruction and Morphing Jar 1&2, etc..
 
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Im very sorry about this, but maybe it was just a typo or something:
now, if we were to add the word "Deck" in the card Level Up! wouldnt the card do about the exact same thing that Level Modulation would? would there be a difference then?
Click to expand...

but:
Level Up![/ycard]]
Send 1 face-up monster on your side of the field that has "LV" in its card name to the Graveyard to activate this card. Special Summon the monster that is written in the card text of that monster from your hand or Deck, ignoring the Summoning conditions.
Click to expand...

I got lost right there =/
 
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masterwoo0 said:
The only thing that makes sense to me, which I still dont agree with, is, if you ignore something, do you really know what happened?

Think about when you ignore someone trying to talk to you. Are you really paying attention to their every word? Probably not. So how can you know what it is that they are trying to say or do?

If you ignore the summoning condition of the card, sure it gets special summoned, but did it get summoned by its effect, or by the effect of another card?

We know that most lower level "LV's" can be reborn with Monster Reborn, Call of the Haunted, Premature Burial, Autonomous Action Unit, Spear Cretin, The Shallow Grave, etc...

With that many ways to bring a LV Monster back, A card like Ultimate Insect LV5, will not get his effect unless he is specifically summoned by LV3's Effect, and not by Level Up!'d LV3, or by Graveyard recursion.

Horus LV6 still gets his effect if special summoned from the Graveyard, and if he destroys a monster, he can be sent to summon LV8. If he is Level Up!'d, he can bring out LV8 as well, but he ignored the summoning condition which stated that he must destroy a monster.

Nowhere in the ruling for Level Up! does it state that the monster is considered to be properly summoned. Most of the time, this hasn't ever been an issue since you could still reborn the lower level monster's, and the upper level were Nomi's, so we never cared.

But now we have a card that looks for that to have happened, and the glaring statement that we have thrown in our face is, "Ignored the Summoning condition".

There is no way around the fact that it doesnt make sense that you cant summon a Nomi LV Monster with it.

It's just an attempt by the powers that be, to clean up a mess without changing the cards text. Sure, you cant know if it was summoned properly, but the card expressly says to ignore it, anyway.

Sometimes I have to wonder, "Why bother?" People only seem to agree with a ruling, when it's effects that they don't care for.

What really sucks is that most of the time, if the ruling holds out, you could never summon the lowest level monsters at ALL using Level Modulation if they went to the Graveyard by effects like Needle Worm or Card Destruction and Morphing Jar 1&2, etc..
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't Level Up! bring out its effect? I was always under the impression that Level Up! forced its the targets effect to LV change. Anyway, the "Ignore summoning conditions" is meant for Nomi-LV monsters, not regular ones for Level Modulation. Regular LV monsters fall under the same mechanics that make it acceptable to discard a Blue-Eyes White Dragon and use Monster Reborn on it. However, changing the wording to fix the card would cause even more nightmares. I understand why they did it, but I would have felt better off with a better solution. We cannot simply have Konami add the text

"Ignore summoning conditions on LV monsters that were properly summoned in this Duel." (or whatever)

This would then mean you could not simply discard a Horus LV6 and use Level Modulation on it, which would then have to be explained why in the rulings. Then if they decided to do a list of the current NOMI monsters and list them on the card and say make a note saying these can be Special Summoned only if they were properly summoned before. That too would cause a headache as future LV monsters would have to be altered to it. The only way I see fixing this card is to Restrict it to 1 and have it do what it actually says on the card and what it says is exactly what Level Up! does and says. This is just another case of Konami relying on the:

Because we say so it works this way, niyah niyah niyah.

Sometimes when I play against people who use Sacred Phoenix, I am tempted to let them bring it back if it got removed from play since its text was never errata to begin with and it is a BS ruling.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Tiso, are you talking about why Ultimate Insect LV5 wouldnt get its effect if you Level Up!'d Ultimate Insect LV3?

Because the card text for Ultimate Insect LV5 says that if you summoned LV5 by the effect of LV3, then you get the effect.

Using LV3 and Level Up! is not summoning LV5 by LV3's effect.
Click to expand...

None of the rulings are working for the Ultimate Insect series, but yeah I always was under the impression that was how it worked. It still could work that way knowing Konami. It just made more sense that it would be able to Special Summon it because you are using the monsters effect which is being forced to activate and ignore the summoning conditions (which probably have not been met like I.E. wait till your next Standby Phase and Tribute this......)
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Also, remember that if you get out a monster like Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8, and you destroy a monster, you can send it to the Graveyard to Special Summon a LV6 from your Deck or Hand, so that would mean that if you Level Up! a Horus LV4, to bring out the LV6 that summoned LV8, then you would not be able to use Level Modulation on the Horus LV6 in your Graveyard.

So it doesnt just apply to the Nomi's.
Click to expand...

Uh why would you not be able to get Horus LV6 again? Do not even get me started on the backwards leveling Horus can do, but you can use Level Modulation regardless. They only put the ignore part for the clearly worded NOMI monsters. Things would be fine if they just made the card work the way Level Up! does, which is exactly worded the same way and then restrict the mess out of it to 1 or banned.
 
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Tkwiget said:
As far as I can tell you can get Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6 onto the field from Level Modulation because it doesn't have some kind of summoning condiction you have to worry about. It can be tribute summoned which I've seen happen countless times. So Horus LV6 can be brought back with Level Modulation no matter what. Doesn't need to be summoned through LV4's effect for Modulation to work.
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Oh I get it. I think he was commenting on about my fix for Level Modulation. If they worded it that way, as being properly summoned then every LV monster has to hit the field first before being able to get modulated back onto the field. However, that would cause even more nightmares. The best solution would be if Konami just makes the card work the way Level Up! does and then restrict it to 1.
 
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Tiso said:
Oh I get it. I think he was commenting on about my fix for Level Modulation. If they worded it that way, as being properly summoned then every LV monster has to hit the field first before being able to get modulated back onto the field. However, that would cause even more nightmares. The best solution would be if Konami just makes the card work the way Level Up! does and then restrict it to 1.
Click to expand...
There ya go!! :icon_mrgr
 
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It aleast would have made the card playable for a few months. :)

but as you can see. big problems, but no fix.

also, TES doesnt state that you need a Harpy lady sisters on the field in order to activate.

all it says is, when you activate it harypy lady sisters attack power pumps up. etc... etc...
 
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Tiso said:
Oh I get it. I think he was commenting on about my fix for Level Modulation. If they worded it that way, as being properly summoned then every LV monster has to hit the field first before being able to get modulated back onto the field. However, that would cause even more nightmares. The best solution would be if Konami just makes the card work the way Level Up! does and then restrict it to 1.
Click to expand...
To me I find that Level Modulation works fine he way the first ruling is made out to be. I don't see anything wrong with the way it functions. I see what you're getting at. But you also have to keep in mind that Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8 is a NOMI monster. (god I hate using that term 'NOMI' -_- )

NOMI monsters can't be brought back under normal circumstances. Level Modulation in my mind only has that line, "ignoring the Summoning conditions" in the text to make Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8 a little more easy to bring back onto the field after being summoned properally and then destroyed and sent to the graveyard.

This is just how I see it and how I think it works. Doesn't mean I'm right nor wrong but I don't really see any problems with the way the card is worded.

<shrugs>
 
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I agree "ignore summoning conditions" should really allow Horus Lv 8, Silent Swordsman Lv 7 and the likes, even if they are NOMI, the text line should really ignore NOMI conditions as well.
 
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To me I catagorize it like the way Black Luster Soldier-Envoy of the Beginning works in its summoning condictions. To me that's how I see Level Modulation's wording to be perfect the way it is.

I will agree that there are quite a few rulings for some cards that someone that has no internet access would know without the internet. Like the whole Level Limit - Area B v.s. Final Attack Orders. Not to mention the rulings it has with Mobius the Frost Monarch and Stumbling. Stuff like that for people that don't have the internet can't learn those mechanics very quickly on their own.

<shrugs again and yawns..>
 
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