Miracle Fusion & Fusion Subs
- Thread starter SPK
- Start date
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
I still think that Miracle Fusion can only use the monsters that are listed. I mean, that's what it says on the card!! I have yet to see a King of the Swamp listed as a E-Hero Fusion Material.
There is also another ruling that states that if you used King of the Swamp as a Fusion Substitute, and an effect allows you to summon the monsters listed on the card to the field, you can't summon King of the Swamp, since its not a Fusion Material Monster listed on the card. I cant remember what effect it is, but I would think that it would be pretty much the same situation here.
If its not listed, you cant use it. You can, however, use it as part of a regular Fusion Summon, and substitute King of the Swamp for one piece.
EDIT: Oh, its Centrifugal Field!!
There is also another ruling that states that if you used King of the Swamp as a Fusion Substitute, and an effect allows you to summon the monsters listed on the card to the field, you can't summon King of the Swamp, since its not a Fusion Material Monster listed on the card. I cant remember what effect it is, but I would think that it would be pretty much the same situation here.
If its not listed, you cant use it. You can, however, use it as part of a regular Fusion Summon, and substitute King of the Swamp for one piece.
EDIT: Oh, its Centrifugal Field!!
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
It doesnt seem to be anything but speculation, "yet". The nearest thing to a ruling is Centrifugal Field. I dont know what comparable effect would make it seem as though you could use Miracle Fusion the way you are trying to.
A Fusion Summon is one thing, but you are summoning based on the Monster itself, not a Spell Card that SAYS you must remove the Fusion Material Cards "listed".
A Fusion Summon is one thing, but you are summoning based on the Monster itself, not a Spell Card that SAYS you must remove the Fusion Material Cards "listed".
"Polymerization" - "Send Fusion Material Monsters that are listed by a Fusion Monster Card from your hand or your side of the field to the Graveyard, and Special Summon the Fusion Monster from your Fusion Deck."
"Miracle Fusion" - "Remove from play, from your side of the field or your Graveyard, Fusion Material Monsters that are listed on a Fusion Monster Card that includes "Elemental Hero" in its card name, and Special Summon that Fusion Monster from your Fusion Deck. (This Special Summon is treated as a Fusion Summon)."
"Dragon's Mirror" - "Remove from play, from your side of the field or your Graveyard, Fusion Material Monsters that are listed on a Dragon-Type Fusion Monster Card, and Special Summon that Fusion Monster from your Fusion Deck. (This Special Summon is treated as a Fusion Summon)."
Can you use Fusion Subs for Polymerization? The card text clearly states you use the material monsters listed. It doesn't say anything about Fusion Subs.
"Miracle Fusion" - "Remove from play, from your side of the field or your Graveyard, Fusion Material Monsters that are listed on a Fusion Monster Card that includes "Elemental Hero" in its card name, and Special Summon that Fusion Monster from your Fusion Deck. (This Special Summon is treated as a Fusion Summon)."
"Dragon's Mirror" - "Remove from play, from your side of the field or your Graveyard, Fusion Material Monsters that are listed on a Dragon-Type Fusion Monster Card, and Special Summon that Fusion Monster from your Fusion Deck. (This Special Summon is treated as a Fusion Summon)."
Can you use Fusion Subs for Polymerization? The card text clearly states you use the material monsters listed. It doesn't say anything about Fusion Subs.
skey23 said:
Then again, listed on and listed by can be two different things as far as Konami is concerned since they love to annoy the heck out of their consumers. I would play it as I normally would. In fact, I am going to put an end to this right now and see if I can use it with a Fusion-Sub from the GX video game right now.
[Edit] Well I smell a conspiracy, as there were no Fusion Subs in the game. I would just play the card like I would you would play Polymerization until Konami officially states something.
The Centrifugal Field wording is an alternative to "used to summon that fusion monster". What is Miracle Fusion's wording an alternative to?masterwoo0 said:
JERP rules in favor of the subs.
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
At what point does the card text "ever" mean what it says?? It seems like the more sense a Card Text makes, the more people try to exploit a "weakness" in the terminology, when there is none.
The game would be ever so simple if rulings were based off Text.
If the actual Fusion Monster does not state that it must be summoned by the exact Fusion Material Monsters, like Dark Balter the Terrible does, then you should be able to use Fusion Sub's.
If you use an effect that states that you must use the listed Material for a "Fusion Summon", then how difficult would it be to just leave it at that? There's no confusion at all. If its not listed, it cant be used.
There are plenty situations where Fusion Sub's can still be used. I really don't see why people keep insisting that Fusion Sub's can go around the text of a card that explicitly says "Listed On Fusion Card". There is no card that I know of that ever has listed Fusion Sub's in its card text.
No one here can complain about Konami's illogical ruling's when everyone still loves to exploit the ones that benefit, and still dont make sense.
"Level Modulation" CAN'T special summon Horus LV8 if it was summoned by Level Up!, but Miracle Fusion CAN special summon a monster summoned by a Fusion Sub.... :icon_mad:
The game would be ever so simple if rulings were based off Text.
If the actual Fusion Monster does not state that it must be summoned by the exact Fusion Material Monsters, like Dark Balter the Terrible does, then you should be able to use Fusion Sub's.
If you use an effect that states that you must use the listed Material for a "Fusion Summon", then how difficult would it be to just leave it at that? There's no confusion at all. If its not listed, it cant be used.
There are plenty situations where Fusion Sub's can still be used. I really don't see why people keep insisting that Fusion Sub's can go around the text of a card that explicitly says "Listed On Fusion Card". There is no card that I know of that ever has listed Fusion Sub's in its card text.
No one here can complain about Konami's illogical ruling's when everyone still loves to exploit the ones that benefit, and still dont make sense.
"Level Modulation" CAN'T special summon Horus LV8 if it was summoned by Level Up!, but Miracle Fusion CAN special summon a monster summoned by a Fusion Sub.... :icon_mad:
masterwoo0 said:
Because you are speaking about two, similiar wordings, but different meanings. I hate to break it to you, but get over it. Konami sucks, they will make cards with similar meanings do completely different things. Read a card that can only be Fusion Summoned by the monsters listed above. I guarantee it will have slightly different text than your average Polymerization, Miracle Fusion, Fusion Gate, etc. Fusion-Subs work because they work under those circumstances and not the other way around. If the card clearly as day states it can only be this card, nothing else, then that is what it is. If a card says it needs a card listed on here and you got a card that can act as that card because of its effect, guess what it works. Nothing hard about that.
We should take their text for face value, it would save a lot of problems if people used common sense on how to use them. To this day the ruling on Sacred Phoenix will forever the hell out of me just because of how absurd it is.
"Hello kids, we at Konami just wanted to tell you that you can destroy a Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys from the Deck and it is sent to the Graveyard and it will be reborned from its own ashes. You can also destroy it while it is in the hand and is sent to the Graveyard and it will be reborn from its own ashes. HOWEVER, YOU MAY NOT DESTROY IT AND REMOVE IT FROM PLAY OR YOU GO TO A FIERY PLACE. Ok? Swell. Have fun kids - Konami."
And how exactly do you know this isn't the correct ruling?Tiso said:
Note: It does indeed seem to say that. JERP says it is a "limited" Total Defense Shogun. Let's save that for another topic.
http://home.att.ne.jp/moon/puppiy/rule/rule4/EEN-JP033.htm
If we tried to base rulings off of text, there would STILL be people that complain that the rulings don't follow the text, because THEY interpreted things differently than Konami. And I can't say for sure that's not what's happening now.masterwoo0 said:
Because of the precedent. Skey outlined it well.masterwoo0 said:
Tiso said:
The ruling makes since. If you destroy and remove something from play it can't be brought back. You don't see people packing Vampire Lord in their deck just because people use Bottomless Trap Hole. People know that if you Bottomless a Vampire Lord it isn't coming back.
If you Bottomless a Phoenix it isn't coming back reguardless if it technically destroys it or not. It's removed from play. Phoenix's effect can only activate when it's considered to be "in play". That's why they ruled that way. A lot of these rulings can be explained and that's one of them.
As for the original question of this thread. Yes you can use fusion subs like King of the Swamp with Miracle Fusion, Dragon's Mirror, etc..etc.. "on" and "by" mean the same thing for fusion monsters. Don't get the two words mixed up in meaning.
Tkwiget said:
I am sorry, but you are wrong. Read Vampire Lord, then read Sacred Phoenix. A card being destroyed is being destroyed. Where it goes is of no meaning unless stated on the card. I.E. Vampire Lord has to be destroyed by the effect of a card and sent to the Graveyard. Clearly sent established to being sent to the Graveyard. You could use Chain of Destruction on it and it would still bring the others back next Standby Phase since they are being destroyed, regardless from hand or Deck. Now read Sacred Phoenix and you will see why the ruling on it is retarded. If they just put "destroyed and sent to the Graveyard" it would resolve this problem. Cards being removed from play means nothing in the larger scheme of things. You are going on some notion that RFG means perma death, when we know that is not true. It works like a Graveyard, just a harder to reach Graveyard.
Cards will not activate when removed from play. This is a basic game mechanic. Sacred Phoenix will not activate when removed from play because of that. It doesn't matter if it was destroyed, but if that same effect removes it from play then it will not activate. That's why. It's basic game mechanics.
Tkwiget said:
You are arguing over poorly defined game mechanics. You are saying any card when removed from play, will not activate its effect which we already know is a complete and utter nonsense right there. D.D. Survivor, D.D. Scout Plane, etc? Seriously. You got nothing. You are trying to fandango some game mechanics to make your point true, when the reality is Konami sucks, Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys should be able to return from RFG and there is nothing de-ability wise in the RFG that would prevent it to. It states so on the card that as long as it was destoyed it can come back. It states on D.D. Survivor if it was removed from play it returns. Just accept it. You are wrong. I am not being smug about it, you are just wrong in this situation.
Lol, ok glad you mentioned those two cards.
The thing about Phoenix, Survivor and Scout Plane are that Phoenix doesn't say anything about being removed from play. Survivor and Scout Plane do. That's there effects. Phoenix doesn't have any line of text stateing it will activate when removed from play. There for it doesn't. It's effect only activates when in play.
The thing about Phoenix, Survivor and Scout Plane are that Phoenix doesn't say anything about being removed from play. Survivor and Scout Plane do. That's there effects. Phoenix doesn't have any line of text stateing it will activate when removed from play. There for it doesn't. It's effect only activates when in play.
Tkwiget said:
You are forgetting one thing. Bottomless Trap Hole states destroy first and remove from play. There is no difference other than the sent to the Graveyard is replaced with removed from play. It is really annoying that this can be fixed with Konami saying it can be Special Summoned from RFG pile or just add the word Graveyard to the card. Does D.D. Survivor anywhere that it needs to be RFG and destroyed? It does not need to be. It can be RFG or it can be destroyed and RFG, although I have not seen a card that just simply RFG a card without destroying it, but you get the point.
- Status