Miracle Fusion & Fusion Subs
- Thread starter SPK
- Start date
I can't understand why people are trying to use card text and supposed "mechanics" to answer this.
It's quite simple; The text on Phoenix is ambiguous, no doubt, that is why they have a ruling that specifically states that the effect of Phoenix activates during the Standby Phase while Phoenix is in the Graveyard...period. The only "mechanic" here is that Konami has and always will see fit to make vague text, and later use ruling for clarification.
That is how the YGO community has been trained... bottom line, in most cases, the card text almost means nothing in terms of the final functionality of an effect. It's all about the rulings.
It's quite simple; The text on Phoenix is ambiguous, no doubt, that is why they have a ruling that specifically states that the effect of Phoenix activates during the Standby Phase while Phoenix is in the Graveyard...period. The only "mechanic" here is that Konami has and always will see fit to make vague text, and later use ruling for clarification.
That is how the YGO community has been trained... bottom line, in most cases, the card text almost means nothing in terms of the final functionality of an effect. It's all about the rulings.
daivahataka
Gold Member
More a case of UDE have yet to iron out the mechanics with Konami, though particially suspect that Konami have yet to even make up there own minds on some.Tiso said:
We viewed things like the multiple chains per battle or manual position changes still allowed after effect position changes as huge changes to game mechanics when they we just previously omissions.
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
What you guys are forgetting is, not everyone who plays this game has the opportunity to visit sites like Netrep or other Yugioh related Forums, including the Official UDE site. You shouldn't have to have a ruling for a card and the only way you would know is by reading it online because the card text is no help whatsoever. Some Effect Text are no better than most "Flavor Text" on Normal Monster Cards.
At the same time, not everyone has a Gaming Location close by where they can benefit from proper ruling's given by a knowledgeable Judge or just someone who DOES have experience.
You have a entire group of people who ONLY have the Rule's Book, if that, and the Card Text to go from when playing, so that means that everytime they play, guess what happens?? If they dont know the answer, they make it up as they go.
So they continue to play incorrectly, which is not their fault, and eventually, they run into someone who does inform them that they are all screwed up.
This game obviously isnt made to just play "straight from the box". It's not even like playing chess. At least you can know most of the rules to play it, and can get by without knowing the more intermediate moves like "En Passant" or "Castling", but you can't just "play" Yugioh without having a complex, 1000 page Rulebook, defining just about every move you could possibly ever make (and even though there isnt such a Rule Book, I'm betting there are over a 1000+ pages of Rulings).
You dont attract people to a game by telling them, "Oh, by the way, there are some cards in this game that really don't have great rulings, and you'll probably never get a decent answer when you ask for one, but have fun anyway!!!"
At the same time, not everyone has a Gaming Location close by where they can benefit from proper ruling's given by a knowledgeable Judge or just someone who DOES have experience.
You have a entire group of people who ONLY have the Rule's Book, if that, and the Card Text to go from when playing, so that means that everytime they play, guess what happens?? If they dont know the answer, they make it up as they go.
So they continue to play incorrectly, which is not their fault, and eventually, they run into someone who does inform them that they are all screwed up.
This game obviously isnt made to just play "straight from the box". It's not even like playing chess. At least you can know most of the rules to play it, and can get by without knowing the more intermediate moves like "En Passant" or "Castling", but you can't just "play" Yugioh without having a complex, 1000 page Rulebook, defining just about every move you could possibly ever make (and even though there isnt such a Rule Book, I'm betting there are over a 1000+ pages of Rulings).
You dont attract people to a game by telling them, "Oh, by the way, there are some cards in this game that really don't have great rulings, and you'll probably never get a decent answer when you ask for one, but have fun anyway!!!"
John Danker
Administrator
There is no doubt that this game would be much easier to play (by the world outside of Japan) if the text were translated and changed to better convey the purpose of the card in each language. As has been mentioned many times though, Konami is extremely bull headed that the translation use the exact wording that the cards printed in Japan use. The very few changes in wording that have been allowed have been fought for at length and with a great amount of resistance from Konami.
What SHOULD be and what IS, I'm afraid, will likely never be close because of what I've mentioned above. When someone says that the card text means little, that's what they're referring to. I'm afraid we're stuck with what we get in this manner....sad as it may be.
What SHOULD be and what IS, I'm afraid, will likely never be close because of what I've mentioned above. When someone says that the card text means little, that's what they're referring to. I'm afraid we're stuck with what we get in this manner....sad as it may be.
This is the problem I get often when making rulings in local tournaments. Not only do people doubt my ruling and logical explaination behind it, but they do it in a disrespectful manner.John Danker said:
Some cards have some strange rulings that allow certain cards to work and others not. I'm referencing to a the Fairy Box ruling I brought up a long time ago here on City of Gamers. Whenever I doubt myself with my generalized ruling and explaination on it I have to look back at the ruling to get why even I rule on it like that.
To me one of the jobs as judges is to break down card text and understand how cards work as much as possible while following the game mechanics that we know. But like Masterwoo0 said, when people don't know the ruling on a situation they just make it up as they go until a more experienced person in game mechanics comes along and corrects the error(s) of the situation.
Sure it'd make the job easier if cards did exactly what they said in their text. But it would be pretty annoying to read over the same line of text in multiple situations every weekend on cards with special summoning effects like Vampire Lord and Phoenix.
This types of problems I think will never get resolved, there are too many similar card texts with different rulings.
Sometimes they have to be different as they could be too powerfull, sometimes they have to be different just to fit a concept. But at the end, the truth is that even if we were to try and explain one sort of effect by referring to another, long down the road we will not be able to do it with another ruling =/.
Sometimes they have to be different as they could be too powerfull, sometimes they have to be different just to fit a concept. But at the end, the truth is that even if we were to try and explain one sort of effect by referring to another, long down the road we will not be able to do it with another ruling =/.
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
Well, even if you had complete AND clear text, you would probably still need some type of card interaction rulings, so that would never go away.
But, as complete as you could get it, cards should be playable without knowing the "Secret Code" on how its played, because it's text is just not detailed enough.
Ultimate Offering was not detailed enough in its first printing. Now, it is. Sure that's an example of a smaller fix, but a fix nonetheless.
The more rulings you have to make for a card, that indicates that there are certain situations where clarity was not present by card text alone.
Do you need a text change for Pot of Greed? No. Draw 2 cards.
Does D.D. Warrior Lady need a text change? Not really, she only needs card interaction rulings.
Does Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys need a text change? Yes. for the simple fact it has less to do with card interaction ruling's than it does clarifying its effect.
You only know that he cannot return from RFG because of the ruling made for it, not the card text, and not a Game Mechanic that you can find in the Rulebook.
But, as complete as you could get it, cards should be playable without knowing the "Secret Code" on how its played, because it's text is just not detailed enough.
Ultimate Offering was not detailed enough in its first printing. Now, it is. Sure that's an example of a smaller fix, but a fix nonetheless.
The more rulings you have to make for a card, that indicates that there are certain situations where clarity was not present by card text alone.
Do you need a text change for Pot of Greed? No. Draw 2 cards.
Does D.D. Warrior Lady need a text change? Not really, she only needs card interaction rulings.
Does Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys need a text change? Yes. for the simple fact it has less to do with card interaction ruling's than it does clarifying its effect.
You only know that he cannot return from RFG because of the ruling made for it, not the card text, and not a Game Mechanic that you can find in the Rulebook.
So what is Ultimate Offering doing this week? Do not forget that Konami will flat out change the way a card works on the spot. Who wants to bet that Elemental Hero Bladedge will not be a total trample monster given the way his text is worded? Why would they go out of their way to single it out like that? UDE is fighting tooth and nail, I assume, with Konami in making changes to the game in order for it to not be fudged up in translation. Just some food for thought, has anyone played Yu-Gi-Oh! Online? How many cards are on there that YOU know are wrong in their text compared to today. I mean Skull Lair is back to the way it was when it first came out, and it was actually playable. It goes to show how much quality Konami places on their own game.
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
Its been so long since Skull Lair changed, I cant even remember what from...
Was it, remove ANY card, to, ONLY Monsters?
Was it, remove ANY card, to, ONLY Monsters?
John Danker
Administrator
Yes, orginally you could remove ANY card, not just monsters.
How many times has Konami changed the way a card you liked or played works? I know countless times. Has it not made you angry, frustrated to continue supporting the game in such a fashion? I know people who flat out quit because of stuff like that, me included countless times. It is a shame that Konami still continues to bungle up their own game when they are trying to fix it with restrictions lists and updated cost versions of broken cards like Raigeki and Pot of Greed, etc. I used to love Skull Lair back in the day. Who here remembers the old De-Fusion? That was by far one kick butt card.
I don't remember that debate on that card. I may or may not have been in it or it might have been before my time when I got really involved as a judge on message boards.slither said:
So what was the issue about? Trying to get an idea so I can stay on topic with the thread.
Another thing that I remember was how many changes Waboku had in rulings. First it was zero battle damage and monster is still destroyed, then it was zero battle damage and monster lives, then destroyed, then lives--it was like Konami couldn't make up their minds about it and just decided to say, "your monster lives" to end all the suffering. =P
I remember the rules where you reveal any card that you get from your deck but from Morphing Jar and Different Dimension Capsule. I remember the issue and ruling on Airknight v.s. Morphing Jar and Fiber Jar.
The more issues that are brought up from players and judges to the people in charge of the game help evolve the game into a more consistant product. Every TCG has these problems. This is just the nature of the game and how it was developed.
IMO, I still think the game was made similar for a quick buck. =/
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
I think if it weren't for the fact that I just like to collect, and not as much since they changed to the Ultimate Rare format and smaller sets, I probably would have quit right after Soul of the Duelist.
As it is, I have only played in Sneak Preview Tourney's since Cybernetic Revolution. It just seems like more fun when EVERYONE is confused!!! lol
Anyway, somethings gotta get better. We are already skimming the bottom,so there's nowhere but up from here!!
As it is, I have only played in Sneak Preview Tourney's since Cybernetic Revolution. It just seems like more fun when EVERYONE is confused!!! lol
Anyway, somethings gotta get better. We are already skimming the bottom,so there's nowhere but up from here!!
I never like having a tournament environment where everyone is confused on how a certain card works. I have that habit of breaking down card text, using whatever secret power I have to understand card text (still have no clue how I do it...), and manage to give a halfway decent ruling with a logical explaination to my ruling with past rulings and mechanics to help support it.
It's like the priority debates we have from time to time. I could hardly stick with the one on the Battle Phase about responce windows, while keeping myself from beating my head against my computer screen in frustration. Too much information to deal with all at once IMO.
These are just some of the things I think Konami should have planned out, defined, and resolved before the game was ever released. You can't just release a card game with loosely defined game mechanics to the public at the beginning and expect the game to thrive and bloom into a successful product like how Wizards of the Coast have with Dungeons & Dragons and Magic the Gathering.
It's like the priority debates we have from time to time. I could hardly stick with the one on the Battle Phase about responce windows, while keeping myself from beating my head against my computer screen in frustration. Too much information to deal with all at once IMO.
These are just some of the things I think Konami should have planned out, defined, and resolved before the game was ever released. You can't just release a card game with loosely defined game mechanics to the public at the beginning and expect the game to thrive and bloom into a successful product like how Wizards of the Coast have with Dungeons & Dragons and Magic the Gathering.
Raijinili said:
I will place the blame on Konami. What YOU probably fail to realize is that even in Japan Konami had it A.) Wrong or B.) Thought it was too powerful and changed it. I think I have enough to go on the basis it is Konami at fault. Yu-Gi-Oh! Online would be proof of that.
Tkwiget said:
Yet they did anyway. Do you not love it when you are in a tourney a kid plays a move and it is wrong, but the kid replies "But I saw Seto Kaiba do the exact move." It is bad enough the anime is confusing, but when the card game is already confusing as it is and trying to incorporate cards being played the way they were on the show is going to cause headaches. I guarantee if they ever release that 1 card Zane uses in future episodes of Yu-Gi-Oh! where he uses Power Bond or Polymerization and then chains with a Quick-Play Spell Card to remove the Fusion Material monsters from his Graveyard from play that it will not work the way it does in the show. You just cannot activate cards for no reason.
- Status