Necrovalley Qustion?

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Big Burn still doesn't target, whether or not player can or cannot remove cards from either graveyard, you have Sinister Serpent to be the classic example of it.

I for one don't know which of both rulings is right or wrong, but im inclined to think that the whole non-targetting issue really is wrong.
 
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slither said:
Big Burn still doesn't target, whether or not player can or cannot remove cards from either graveyard, you have Sinister Serpent to be the classic example of it.

I for one don't know which of both rulings is right or wrong, but im inclined to think that the whole non-targetting issue really is wrong.
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It doesn't matter if it targets or not. It is attempting to remove cards from the Graveyard from play. The effect of "Necrovalley" prevents that. Plain and simple.

What's the issue with "Sinister Serpent"? Does "Sinister Serpent" remove itself from play? No. Does it's effect activate in the Graveyard? Yes. So what's the issue?
 
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I ment it took something out of the graveyard and so can DTLaD, im not argueing what may or may not be the ruling, but it is not that simple of an issue, given that there are diverse similar effects which contest against similar rulings and even without a clear explanation of them.
 
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skey23 said:
"Sinister Serpent"s effect activates in the Graveyard so "Necrovalley" can't stop it.

"Dedication through Light and Darkness" is an effect activating outside the Graveyard, attempting to take something from the Graveyard out. You would think that "Necrovalley" would stop it. It WOULD make perfect sense...lol. But the rulings given to us state otherwise because "Dedication through Light and Darkness" does not target....go figure....lol.


I get what you're saying now...lol.
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Yes, we can't go over the rules :djmorph, that's a fact, it just gets really frustrating sometimes, to have to pintail every little detail of how and why.

I guess that :bkss_jediwill have us under their spell forever lol.
 
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skey23 said:
"Sinister Serpent"s effect activates in the Graveyard so "Necrovalley" can't stop it.

"Dedication through Light and Darkness" is an effect activating outside the Graveyard, attempting to take something from the Graveyard out. You would think that "Necrovalley" would stop it. It WOULD make perfect sense...lol. But the rulings given to us state otherwise because "Dedication through Light and Darkness" does not target....go figure....lol.


I get what you're saying now...lol.
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I don't understand how Dedication through Light and Darkness does not target. The card text SPECIFICALLY states to send Dark Magician TO the graveyard (understand that the effect happens outside of the graveyard) in order to special summon Dark Magician of Chaos FROM the graveyard. It doesn't say to take a card with ATK of 1500 or less or some other generic effect card. Only Dark Magician of Chaos can be REMOVED from the graveyard? If that isn't a targeting effect, then can someone explain. Konami messed up BIG time on this one.
 
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Skey you have to keep in mind that just because Dediction through Light and Darkness doesn't target doesn't mean it won't necessarly not be negated.

Although I'm leaning towards my original position on the situation was wrong. Meaning: I'm agreeing with you Skey. =)

"As long as this card remains on the field, negate the effects of Spell, Trap, and Monster Cards that affect a card(s) in the Graveyard, and neither player can remove cards in the Graveyards from play. Also, as long as this card remains on the field, increase the ATK and DEF of all monsters that include "Gravekeeper's" in their card name by 500 points."

I do believe the bolded text of Necrovalley is what have to look at and compare it to Dediction through Light and Darkness.

"You can only activate this card by Tributing "Dark Magician" on your side of the field. Select 1 "Dark Magician of Chaos" from your hand, your Graveyard or your Deck and Special Summon it."

I believe the reason why Skey thinks Dediction through Light and Darkness wouldn't be negated is because of the fact there is that "unsure" factor. Similar to how Barrel Behind the Door can't work against Dice Jar or Judgment of Anubis.

That's just something to think about. When it comes to Necrovalley, I'm usually wrong with my first position in the discussion.
 
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Ok, I'll post it once again, for those of you who don't want to click on the links and read the rulings for yourselves...lol.

"Necrovalley" ruling:
"Necrovalley" will NOT negate effects that do not target a card or cards in the Graveyard. So "Necrovalley" will NOT negate the effects of "Dark Necrofear" (when destroyed and sent to the Graveyard), "Revival Jam", "Winged Sage Falcos", "Twin-Headed Behemoth", "Mystical Knight of Jackal", and "Red-Moon Baby".
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See bolded.

"Dedication through Light and Darkness" ruling:
"Dedication through Light and Darkness" does not target.
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Put this ruling together with the bolded ruling form "Necrovalley" and you have 'where I'm coming from'...lol.
 
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That was what I pointed out in post #7, though it really creates several issues, in a similar topic it was discussed on how would this work with Inferno Reckless Summon, which several people stated that Necrovalley would negate the whole effect, because it was a card that "could" take out cards from the grave.

We really need a clarification, because im very esceptical on which is really correct.
 
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slither said:
That was what I pointed out in post #7, though it really creates several issues, in a similar topic it was discussed on how would this work with Inferno Reckless Summon, which several people stated that Necrovalley would negate the whole effect, because it was a card that "could" take out cards from the grave.

We really need a clarification, because im very esceptical on which is really correct.
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Your deck and hand isn't public knowledge to your opponent. Only the field and Graveyard is. Inferno Reckless Summon may or may not special summon additional copies of the monster because you "check" for additional copies to summon. So that's why I think Necrovalley wouldn't negate Inferno Reckless Summon. =/

Keep in mind, I'm usually wrong with anything dealing with Necrovalley and I have no clue why. XD

I do believe Skey is correct. Dedication through Light and Darkness won't be negated by Necrovalley because it may or may not be able to Special Summon a Dark Magician of Chaos.

The difference between Dedication through Light and Darkness and Inferno Reckless Summon is that Inferno Reckless Summon has two effects. You summon additional copies of your 1500 attack or less monster and after that your opponent selects 1 of their face up monsters to summon additional copies of that monster from their hand, Deck or Graveyard. This isn't targetting anything in the Graveyard, it's targetting a monster on the field at best and then performing a "search and summon" action when it resolves.

I believe that cards that give you the option of summoning from either your hand, Deck, or Graveyard are non-targetting effects because you may or may not pick a card in the Graveyard.

Targets are declared upon activation of a card or effect activation.
 
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I digress, after having a more close look around Necrovalley, there is an interesting thing about it... Necrovalley stops a card that tries to take something out of the graveyard from the outside.

I now believe that Necrovalley would defenitely stop IRS and DTLaD, take a closer look at all the examples that surround Necrovalley's rulings:

Rulings

Are taken out of the field by outside interferance:
  1. "Necrovalley" negates any effect that targets a card or cards in the Graveyard. So "Necrovalley" WILL negate the effect of: "Monster Reborn", "Premature Burial", "Call of the Haunted", "Question", "Backup Soldier", "Spear Cretin", "The Shallow Grave", "Magician of Faith", "Fiber Jar", "Penguin Knight", and "Agido".
  2. "Necrovalley" negates costs and effects that require removing cards from the Graveyard. So "Necrovalley" WILL prevent a player from removing cards in the Graveyard from play to activate the effect of "Bazoo the Soul-Eater" or "Chaosrider Gustaph". "Necrovalley" WILL prevent a player from removing cards in the Graveyard from play to Special Summon "Dark Necrofear" or "Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning". "Necrovalley" WILL negate card effects like "Big Burn", "Gravedigger Ghoul", "Disappear", and "Soul Release".
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Take themselves out of the grave:
  1. "Necrovalley" will NOT negate effects that are activated when a card is sent TO the Graveyard or that activate IN the Graveyard or that count cards in the Graveyard. So it will NOT negate the effects of "Sangan", "Witch of the Black Forest", "Black Pendant", "Giant Rat", "Mystic Tomato", "Kuriboh", "Graceful Charity", "Sinister Serpent", "Marie the Fallen One", "Buster Blader", "Shadow Ghoul", "Helpoemer", "Sword of Deep-Seated", "Vampire Lord", "Coffin Seller", and "Magical Thorn".
2. "Necrovalley" will NOT negate effects that do not target a card or cards in the Graveyard. So "Necrovalley" will NOT negate the effects of "Dark Necrofear" (when destroyed and sent to the Graveyard), "Revival Jam", "Winged Sage Falcos", "Twin-Headed Behemoth", "Mystical Knight of Jackal", and "Red-Moon Baby".
  2. If "Necrovalley" is on the field, you can Special Summon "Gilasaurus" using its effect, but the effect that lets your opponent Special Summon is negated.
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slither said:
I digress, after having a more close look around Necrovalley, there is an interesting thing about it... Necrovalley stops a card that tries to take something out of the graveyard from the outside.

I now believe that Necrovalley would defenitely stop IRS and DTLaD, take a closer look at all the examples that surround Necrovalley's rulings:

Rulings

Are taken out of the field by outside interferance:


Take themselves out of the grave:
[/list]
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That's partly what I was saying before. How can anyone say the Dedication through Light, while it allows you to remove from the deck, targets ONE and ONLY ONE SPECIFIC card in the graveyard and no other card is allowed to be special summoned EXCEPT Dark Magician of Chaos. If that is targeting, what is? Anyone?
 
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anothyj, that's what I was thinking too. =)

Slither, Inferno Reckless Summoning isn't targetting anything in the Graveyard when it resolves. You target your monster that was summoned when you activate it and search for additional copies from your hand, Deck, and Graveyard. Your opponent targets one of their face up monsters and does the same.

It doesn't matter if Dedication through Light and Darkness or Inferno Reckless Summon target or not.

Btw, them saying Question, Fiber Jar, and Penguin Knight doesn't make any sense. You aren't declaring any target when they activate. Saying they target skews all the game mechanics around Targetting Effects to pieces.

However, they should be negated on the grounds of Necrovalley's card text.

As long as this card remains on the field, negate the effects of Spell, Trap, and Monster Cards that affect a card(s) in the Graveyard, and neither player can remove cards in the Graveyards from play. Also, as long as this card remains on the field, increase the ATK and DEF of all monsters that include "Gravekeeper's" in their card name by 500 points.

The bolded portion of Necrovalley is what negates cards that alter the graveyard from outside of the graveyard. Cards that activate inside the graveyard still work. That's what the rulings are saying.

You guys are confusing me and I'm starting to flip flop like Flip Flop Control decks...@_@
 
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HorusMaster said:
I don't understand how Dedication through Light and Darkness does not target. The card text SPECIFICALLY states to send Dark Magician TO the graveyard (understand that the effect happens outside of the graveyard) in order to special summon Dark Magician of Chaos FROM the graveyard. It doesn't say to take a card with ATK of 1500 or less or some other generic effect card. Only Dark Magician of Chaos can be REMOVED from the graveyard? If that isn't a targeting effect, then can someone explain. Konami messed up BIG time on this one.
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Read Dedication through Light and Darkness again. The fact that you can search your hand, Deck, or graveyard makes it a non-targetting effect. Also, tributing Dark Magician is a cost to activate Dedication through Light and Darkness. If it wasn't, then it wouldn't have the first sentence worded the way it does.

Dedication through Light and Darkness is an outside card effect that's altering the Graveyard. It's "outside" because it doesn't activate "in" the Graveyard. However, it still will be negated because of that reason.

In situations dealing with Inferno Reckless Summon targetting the summoned monster on your field with copies in the Graveyard, yes it will be negated. If no additional copies exist in the Graveyard then Necrovalley will not negate Inferno Reckless Summon.

Necrovalley will only negate Dedication through Light and Darkness or Inferno Reckless Summon if their effects will alter the Graveyards.

All that is just something to think about. =/
 
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I never said either of them targetted, on the contrary I know they don't target, what I mean is that, Necrovalley negates them because they try to take something out of the grave, regardless of it being a non-targetting effect.
 
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If the monster(s) those two cards are trying to summon exist in the Graveyard. Dedication through Light and Darkness and Inferno Reckless Summon are effects that may or may not affect the Graveyard, however, they most certainly have the ability too.

So I guess I'm back to saying Necrovalley will negate them they attempt to alter the Graveyard. =/

@_@ I hate this card. I rarely get rulings correct ever on this card. I understand Last Turn a lot more than I do Necrovalley and Last Turn is way more complex of a card.
 
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slither said:
I never said either of them targetted, on the contrary I know they don't target, what I mean is that, Necrovalley negates them because they try to take something out of the grave, regardless of it being a non-targetting effect.
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"Necrovalley" will NOT negate effects that do not target a card or cards in the Graveyard. So "Necrovalley" will NOT negate the effects of "Dark Necrofear" (when destroyed and sent to the Graveyard), "Revival Jam", "Winged Sage Falcos", "Twin-Headed Behemoth", "Mystical Knight of Jackal", and "Red-Moon Baby".

So your theory is that Mystical Knight of Jackal does not affect a card in the Graveyard?

I must admit it seems quite odd to me that Penguin Knight and Fiber Jar are "Targeting" effects (does that mean that if I chain Mystik Wok to send my Treeborn Frog to the Graveyard after Fiber Jar has been flip summoned that my Treeborn Frog won't be shuffled back into my deck because it was added after Fiber Jar "Targeted" the contents of my Graveyard?) :)

Certainly something worth posting to the Judge's List. Necrovalley itself doesn't state that it requires the card in the Graveyard to be Targeted in order to negate it, but the rulings certainly seem to state that it only prevents Targeted effects. Aside from Penguin Knight and Fiber Jar that is.

-Edit- I do so enjoy these issues. :)
 
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Anthoyj, I hate these issues. :)

Also, I'm just going to post up Necrovalley's old card text and the card errata version as well. Just so you guys have that information to use in the discussion because it might come in handy.

Old Card Text (the PGD and DL3 version)

As long as this card remains face-up on the field, all effects of Spell, Trap and/or Effect Monster Cards that involve Graveyards are negated and neither player can remove cards in the Graveyards from play. In addition, increase the ATK and DEF of all monsters that includes "Gravekeeper's" in their card name by 500 points.

New Card Text (the Card Errata version)

As long as this card remains on the field, negate the effects of Spell, Trap, and Monster Cards that affect a card(s) in the Graveyard, and neither player can remove cards in the Graveyards from play. Also, as long as this card remains on the field, increase the ATK and DEF of all monsters that include "Gravekeeper's" in their card name by 500 points.
 
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