Nomi or Not Nomi? That is the Question...

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OKShadow

OKC's Dark Duelist
This is for the continuing discussion started under the Harpy Sister thread. This is in regards to what makes a "nomi" monster just that or if there's a loophole that can be exploited around it. :evil:

For example...

Red Eyes Black Metal Dragon...
This card can only be Special Summoned from the Deck to the field by offering "Red-Eyes B. Dragon" equipped with "Metalmorph" as a Tribute. Your Deck is then shuffled.

Rulings
1. This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set, and must be Special Summoned from the Deck by the condition written on the card. It CANNOT be Special Summoned from your hand. So once it is in your hand, there is no way to Summon this card.

If this is the same for Metalzoa, can any of these be used once they hit the coffin for a dirt nap?
 
well they explain there that, That especific card can only be summoned from the deck.

no matter what, Since the card says it has to come out from the deck, then it has to.

Any other way, you cannot.

Its kinda how when Relinquished gets bounced back to your hand after ritual, you then need another ritual in order to summon that Relinquish right back out even though you had already summoned it once before.

Its wierd but its how we do things in this game. lol
 
But cards like "Black Luster Solder: EotB" say that it can only be special summoned by removing a light/dark from play, yet that can be Monster Reborn and such.

"Exodia Necross" was ruled to be a nomi monster even though the text hasn't been errated like the rest.

So, that's why "Red-Eyes Black Metal Dragon" and "Metalzoa" are left as... we're not 100% sure right now and why the question was posed since they don't quite mention the graveyard in there.

- A
 
krazykidpsx said:
Its kinda how when Relinquished gets bounced back to your hand after ritual, you then need another ritual in order to summon that Relinquish right back out even though you had already summoned it once before.
What if after Relinquished got bounced back to your hand, then you discard it to the GY with Graceful Charity, can you Monster Reborn it?
 
No you cant, cause once it goes back to your hand it "forgets" that it was in the field.

remember how we found out that BLS-E can be summoned, Remove a monster, returned to your hand by CED, then summoned again and remover another monster, then flip it face down with book and filp it up with book of Taiyou and remove another, then CED again and finally summon to attack.

same exact deal, scept that Rituals dont forget that they were summoned if they were to get Booked.


------------------

well we have to remember that BLS-E cannot be summoned from the deck.

You cant just say, Oh ill remove a light and dark and special summon BLS from my deck.

or

Say ill remove a light and dark from my deck to special summon BLS from my graveyard.

see bls, says that there is a way to summon it from your hand and since there is no "You can" text infront of its "This card can only be summoned by..."

like the Sphynx's.

remember that when we play monsters the only way we can summon them is through our hand, not deck or graveyard.

BUT we can make it possible in certain situations to summon monsters from deck or graveyard but that goes by the effect of other cards.

Since BLS-E has a condition like lets say a properly summoned Ritual monster.

See ritual monsters once summoned and later sent to the graveyard can be specialed summoned from the graveyard.

we also have to remember that the first BLS was a ritual monster so maybe to try and make it somewhat similar but not they decided to add such a condition.

May seem a bit wierd but not really in the end. :)
 
Through example, here is what a Nomi monster is:

"Nomi Monster: An Effect Monster (excluding all Ritual Monsters and most Fusion Monsters) that can only be Special Summoned through its effect and requires the use of either A) a specific Tribute condition, B) a Spell Card, or C) if the card says, 'Cannot be Special Summoned except by...'"

So what does "Nomi" include?
XYZ Fusions (XY, YZ, XZ, XYZ)
Dark Paladin (Since a Fusion Summon is already a Special Summon, this effect is saying that it's the only way you can Special Summon him)
Exodia Necross (requires the use of the Spell Card "Contract with Exodia")
Harpie Lady Sisters (requires the use of the Spell Card "Elegant Egotist")
Mirage Knight (requires the use of "Dark Flare Knight"'s effect)
Mazera DeVille (requires the Tribute of a "Warrior of Zera" while "Sanctuary in the Sky" is the active field)
Archlord Zerato (requires the Tribute of a "Warrior of Zera" while "Sanctuary in the Sky" is the active field)


What would not be included as "Nomi"?
Any Ritual Monster (since its Special Summoning through a Ritual Spell Card is a rule and not a special circumstance)
Most Fusion Monsters (since its Special Summoning through the use of Polymerization is a rule and not a special circumstance)
Dark Necrofear (you are removing cards from the Graveyard with her own effect)
Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning (you are removing cards from your Graveyard through his own effect)

So from these examples, would Red-Eyes B. Metal Dragon be a "Nomi" monster? YES. It requires the Tribute of a Red-Eyes B. Dragon equipped with "Metalmorph" to Special Summon it from the Deck. The same would be true for Metalzoa.

QUESTION: Should "Gate Guardian" be considered a "Nomi" monster? He requires you to Tribute the 3 pieces in order to Special Summon him.
 
Also included on the nomi list (moving them over from the other thread)

"Sorcerer of Dark Magic" (offer 2 6+ Star Spellcasters)
"Spirit of the Pharaoh" (The effect of "The First Sarcophagus")
"Theinen the Great Sphinx" (The effect of having "Andro Sphinx" and "Sphinx Teleia" destroyed at the same time)
"Armed Dragon LV7" (The effect of "Armed Dragon LV5" or "Level Up!")
"Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8" (The effect of "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6" or "Level Up!")
"Blue-Eyes Shining Dragon" (offer "Blue-Eyes Ultimate Dragon" as a tribute)
"Dark Magician Knight" (The effect of "Knight's Title")
"Berzerk Dragon" (The effect of "A Deal with Dark Ruler")
"Fuhsioh Richie" (The effect of "Great Dezard")

However, just because a monster has a specific tribute condition, that doesn't mean it is a Nomi monster. "Dark Sage" has one of the hardest conditions (offer "Dark Magician" as a tribute when you get the effect of "Time Wizard" correct) yet that was ruled that it can be brought back with "Monster Reborn" if it was successfully summoned. "Gate Guardian" currently isn't considered a nomi, and neither is "Valkyrion the Magna Warrior" and both of those require 3 tributes (though Valkyrion is more of a "fusion" without needing "Polymerization").

Also, all of the "Moth" cards aren't considered nomi monsters right now ("Larvae Moth", "Great Moth", "Perfectly-Ultimate Great Moth" and those have special tribute conditions as well. Neither is "Wall Shadow".

(Note, all of the above are based upon the current rulings. It's possible this will change as Kevin finishes updating the FAQ)

So what I'm saying about this is, just because a monster has a special tribute condition like "Metalzoa" and "Red-Eyes Black Metal Dragon", that doesn't automatically make it a nomi monster.

Here's also one for you. Where would "Gradius's Option" fall under?

Gradius's Option
Effect Monster (Machine / LIGHT / 1 Star / ATK ? / DEF ?)

This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This monster can only be Special Summoned by selecting 1 "Gradius" on your side of the field. The ATK and DEF of this monster is always the same as the ATK and DEF of the selected "Gradius". If the selected "Gradius" is removed from the field, this card is also destroyed.

Personal opinion here: I think all the nomi cards should have the text errata-ed to have the "This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special Summoned except by <EFFECT>" in order to avoid any possible dispute over whether or not a monster can be reborn from the graveyard.

- Andrew
 
Blue-Eyes Black said:
Through example, here is what a Nomi monster is:

"Nomi Monster: An Effect Monster (excluding all Ritual Monsters and most Fusion Monsters) that can only be Special Summoned through its effect and requires the use of either A) a specific Tribute condition, B) a Spell Card, or C) if the card says, 'Cannot be Special Summoned except by...'"

So what does "Nomi" include?
XYZ Fusions (XY, YZ, XZ, XYZ)


XYZ Fusions are Not Nomi monsters. So far there is no way to properly Fusion summon them, so they can't be reborned, or summoned from Removed From Play. Perhaps when V and W (Dragon Machines) are released there might be a way to Fusion Summon (maybe a Field Spell Card... Machine Integration Facility ?)
 
Yes they are...they are refered to when Kevin outlines the nomi list.

Also in that write-up, the text of each of these monsters is to be changed to reflect what densetsu_x is stating.

"This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set.  This card cannot be Special Summoned except by <METHOD>"

I will try and track it down and post it here, it was on the old judge's board. If there is an effect in the future that somehow ignores the special summon cp\ondtions, then maybe, just maybe it will "properly" summon them. Then again, that applies to ANY nomi...
 
novastar said:
I will try and track it down and post it here, it was on the old judge's board. If there is an effect in the future that somehow ignores the special summon cp\ondtions, then maybe, just maybe it will "properly" summon them. Then again, that applies to ANY nomi...


NOMI monsters ARE properly summoned in the first place and can Not be reborned. XYZ can not be reborned bacause they aren't properly summoned.
 
The XYZ fusions are a bit of a mess because Konami decided to make them "fusions" even though they really aren't (see "Valkyrion" or "Gate Guardian"). Because of that they cause massive headaches for us.

The XYZ cards can be successfully special summoned by the requirements on the card. Because they have that Fusion tag though, they can never be "properly" summoned by which other fusion monsters can be "properly" summoned. Then add that 1 line from the "XYZ-Dragon Cannon" ruling that we've debated several times over and *ugh*.

They are considered to be nomi-monsters right now because there is only 1 way they can be special summoned and they can't be reborn from the graveyard or RFP. And as I said earlier, the nomi's should all have that text on them to mark they can't be reborn.

- A
 
DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
novastar said:
I will try and track it down and post it here, it was on the old judge's board. If there is an effect in the future that somehow ignores the special summon cp\ondtions, then maybe, just maybe it will "properly" summon them. Then again, that applies to ANY nomi...


NOMI monsters ARE properly summoned in the first place and can Not be reborned.  XYZ can not be reborned bacause they aren't properly summoned.
That makes no sense...

You are confusing the situation, there is a difference between "Fusion Summoning" and "Special Summoning"

If i Special Summon a Fusion monster with Magical Scientist, have a properly Special Summoned the monster? Yes, with the effect. Have i properly Fusion Summoned it? No, which is why i can't reborn it. That is in the case of a normal Fusion monster. The nomi-monsters are different for one reason, it doesn't matter whatsoever how you get them on the field, the summon condition on the card (which should be written there) prevents any other form of special summoning. So properly summoning them is irrelevent.

Dark Paladin can illustrate this, and is also a Fusion and a nomi-monster..."This card cannot be Special Summoned except by Fusion Summon." Even though you "properly" Fusion Summon it, why can't you reborn it? it is because of the "cannot except" condition put on the monster. It is no other reason...

Like i said, Kevin has stated this in print, and both DP and the XYZ's were on the list, and should have their respective text's changed.

Post 10357 Judge's Group

I want to again explain the new terminology that will be appearing on
Monster Cards from now on.

As you're all aware, we've had "Special Summon-only" monsters for some time.
These monsters cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. Also, if you discard them
from your hand or Deck, without properly Special Summoning them, you can't
revive them from the Graveyard with Monster Reborn, etc.

However, there's an additional classification of monsters. Around the office
we call them "nomi monsters". Nomi monsters are those that cannot be revived
from the Graveyard, even if you Special Summoned them properly before.

Until recently, there were issues with telling these cards apart. But we've
started to fix that with recent promo cards, and it's a pattern you'll
continue to see in upcoming sets. The decision that was made was to keep the
old text for the standard "Special Summon-only" monsters, since most older
cards fall into that category, and have special new text for the "nomi
monsters".

So how will you be able to tell the difference?

A standard "Special Summon-only" monster will continue to have text like
this (Harpie Lady Sisters):
This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card can only be Special
Summoned by the effect of "Elegant Egotist".

This is the standard terminology we've used for ages. It means that the only
way to Spcial Summon it is using the method listed... BUT, if you do so,
then you can "revive" it afterwards.

A "nomi monster" will have text like this (Dark Magician Knight):
This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special
Summoned except by the effect of "Knight's Title".

Or this (Theinen the Great Sphinx):
This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special
Summoned except by paying 500 Life Points when both "Andro Sphinx" and
"Sphinx Teleia" on your side of the field are destroyed at the same time;
then you can Special Summon this monster from your hand or Deck.

Or this (Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8):
This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special
Summmoned except by the effect of "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6".

Or this (Archlord Zerato):
This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special
Summoned except by offering 1 face-up "Warrior of Zera" on your side of the
field as a Tribute while "The Sanctuary in the Sky" is on the field.

Or this (Spirit of the Pharaoh):
This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special
Summoned except by the effect of "The First Sarcophagus".

Or this (Mazera DeVille):
This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special
Summoned except by offering 1 face-up "Warrior of Zera" on your side of the
field as a Tribute while "Pandemonium" is on the field.

Note the use of the word "EXCEPT". This is the key to spotting a "nomi
monster". These monsters cannot be revived with Monster Reborn, etc., even
if properly Summoned in the first place. They CAN'T be Normal or Special
Summoned, or Set.... EXCEPT for ONE, and ONLY ONE, condition: using the
method written on the card. And that's IT.


For older monsters that are "nomi monsters", consider the old text to be
revised. For example:

Exodia Necross is:
This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special
Summoned except by the effect of "Contract with Exodia".

Ditto for Berserk Dragon. And Mirage Knight. And XYZ-Fusions. And Dark
Paladin.

The XYZ/Dimension Fusion ruling might have something to do with the Removed From Play area, and supports this thinking. I personally don't see the difference, but hey, Konami said so. The fact that they cannot be reborned (in the case of XYZ's) does not so much have to do with the fact that they are Fusions (although I can see the arguement). The only way to get around any nomi restriction, would be to have an effect (like Level Up!) that specifically ignores it.

Hope that helps
 
Well since that ruling you posted novastar, "Harpie Lady Sisters" has been errata-ed so the text is now this:

Harpie Lady Sisters
Effect Monster (Winged Beast / WIND / 6 Stars / ATK 1950 / DEF 2100)

This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special Summoned except by the effect of "Elegant Egotist".



Therefore, it now is a nomi-monster.

- Andrew
 
Nomi monsters didn't even EXIST before 302/Magician's Force. It's impossible for HLS to be a nomi monster.

The list of unrevivable special summon monsters from the JERP:
Exodia Necros (e. Exodia Necross)
Berserk Dead Dragon (e. Berserk Dragon)
Mirage Knight (e. Mirage Knight)
Black Magician's Knight (e. Dark Magician Knight)*
Great Angel Zeraht (e. Archlord Zerato)
Devil Mazera (e. Mazera Deville)
Spirit of Pharaoh (e. Spirit of the Pharaoh)
Black Flame Dragon of Horus LV8 (e. Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8)
Armed Dragon LV7 (e. Armed Dragon LV7)
Magic Hierophant of Black (e. Sorcerer of Dark Magic)
Blue Eyes Shining Dragon (e. Blue Eyes Shining Dragon)
Sphinx Androgynous (e. Theinen the Great Sphinx)

FGD (not in EN)
Master Dragon Knight (not in EN)
Super Magic Swordsman - Black Paladin (e. Dark Paladin)

XYZ - Dragon Cannon (e. XYZ-Dragon Cannon)
XY - Dragon Cannon (e. XY-Dragon Cannon)
XZ - Caterpillar Cannon (e. XZ-Tank Cannon)
YZ - Caterpillar Dragon (e. YZ-Tank Dragon)

*Black Magician's Knight can be summoned from the Graveyard using Title of a Knight. (e. Dark Magician Knight can be summoned from the graveyard using Knight's Title.)

Any other special summon monster can be Monster Reborned and/orDimension Fusioned as long as it was properly summoned.
 
Raijinili said:
Nomi monsters didn't even EXIST before 302/Magician's Force. It's impossible for HLS to be a nomi monster.

The list of unrevivable special summon monsters from the JERP:
Exodia Necros (e. Exodia Necross)
Berserk Dead Dragon (e. Berserk Dragon)
Mirage Knight (e. Mirage Knight)
Black Magician's Knight (e. Dark Magician Knight)*
Great Angel Zeraht (e. Archlord Zerato)
Devil Mazera (e. Mazera Deville)
Spirit of Pharaoh (e. Spirit of the Pharaoh)
Black Flame Dragon of Horus LV8 (e. Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8)
Armed Dragon LV7 (e. Armed Dragon LV7)
Magic Hierophant of Black (e. Sorcerer of Dark Magic)
Blue Eyes Shining Dragon (e. Blue Eyes Shining Dragon)
Sphinx Androgynous (e. Theinen the Great Sphinx)

FGD (not in EN)
Master Dragon Knight (not in EN)
Super Magic Swordsman - Black Paladin (e. Dark Paladin)

XYZ - Dragon Cannon (e. XYZ-Dragon Cannon)
XY - Dragon Cannon (e. XY-Dragon Cannon)
XZ - Caterpillar Cannon (e. XZ-Tank Cannon)
YZ - Caterpillar Dragon (e. YZ-Tank Dragon)

*Black Magician's Knight can be summoned from the Graveyard using Title of a Knight. (e. Dark Magician Knight can be summoned from the graveyard using Knight's Title.)

Any other special summon monster can be Monster Reborned and/orDimension Fusioned as long as it was properly summoned.


Addressing the Harpie Lady Sisters comment: Read the errata'd effect of Harpie Lady Sisters and tell us it's not a Nomi Monster.
Harpie Lady Sisters
(Metal Raiders)
This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special Summoned except by the effect of "Elegant Egotist".

Also, the rulings being discussed are for the English game. Japanese rulings really mean nothing in the English game. The only people who should be using Japanese ruilngs for the English game are the people on the rules team at Konami when they tell Kevin Tewart which of their rulings are going exactly into the English game.
 
if HLS becomes "nomi", then except for monster reincarnation, that nerf's the Harpy deck even more doesn't it? Not to mention the restriction of Harpy Lady and 1-3 to a total of 3 like ALO/Umi. So far here's the basic template for a total Harpy deck:

3 HLS
3 Harpy Lady, 1, 2, 3
3 Birdface
3 Harpie's Brother
3 Harpy Girl
3 Harpies' Pet Dragon

3 Harpy Hunting Grounds
3 Triangle X Spark
3 Elegant Egotist

Other spells and traps to suit...
Is that correct? If you want no monsters but Harpy base?
 
I read it already. I read it weeks ago, if not months. It's a simple fact that Nomi monsters, even the concept, did not exist until what America calls Magician's Force. And as I said in the other topic, UDE is still going "wtf?!?!" to Konami about this.
 
Raijinili said:
I read it already. I read it weeks ago, if not months. It's a simple fact that Nomi monsters, even the concept, did not exist until what America calls Magician's Force. And as I said in the other topic, UDE is still going "wtf?!?!" to Konami about this.

Just because a concept doesn't come out until nearly 1 1/2 years after a set's release doesn't make the concept illegal for older cards.

Here's what Konami saw:

Head of Rulings: "We are ruling that because Exodia Necross needs a Magic Card to be Special Summoned that he cannot be Special Summoned in any other way. This is because he is not using his own effect ["own effect" = Dark Necrofear-type monsters] to properly Special Summon himself."

Lowly Minion: "Sir, what about Harpie Lady Sisters? They require a Magic Card to be Special Summoned, too. Right? What's it called? Ten-Thousand Reflections [E. Elegant Egotist]?"

Head of Rulings: "When was that card released? Volume series? No matter. Since she requires a Magic Card to be Special Summoned properly, she'll be ruled the same way."


Of course, this leads me to wonder why Red-Eyes Black Metal Dragon and Metalzoa are not Nomi monsters since their Special Summon requirement (to me) is similar to Archlord Zerato [Tributing a certain monster while a certain Magic/Trap is face-up on that player's field]. They probably didn't consider changing the ruling because no one plays with those cards. LOL! Just a joke, people! Just a joke!
 
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