HorusMaster
New Member
Just wanted to know- do you only remove monsters from play that would normally go to the graveyard or is EVERY card removed from play? Curious about how it plays out given the card text does not specify only monsters.
One more thought on Macros Cosmos
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masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
If D.D. Survivor is attacked and destroyed while "face-down" (since he would be destroyed by effect, there is no Damage Cal, and therefore, no Battle), of course it will not get its effect when removed. If it is attacked and "Damage Calculation" is conducted, then he is removed face-up.ygo doc said:
HorusMaster
New Member
masterwoo0 said:
As with any card that is attacked "face down", the card MUST be flipped in order to determine damage calculation, UNLESS the attacking card's text effect is that the card is destroyed WITHOUT damage calculation (like Swordsman-any level). If D.D. Survivor is destroyed as a result of damage calculation, then he is either sent to the graveyard or removed from play (depending on effect) FACE UP.
By the way, there is a "battle" but the effect of the card removes damage calculation from the "battle". You can't attack and activate the card effect of Swordsman without declaring an attack which would create a "battle" situation. There just isn't any damage calculation.
"¢ Like "Atomic Firefly", "Foxfire", and "Poison Draw Frog", if a face-down "Giant Kozaky" is attacked and destroyed, its effect is not applied. However, if a face-down "Giant Kozaky" is attacked, and is not destroyed by the attack, if "Kozaky" is not face-up on the field, then "Giant Kozaky" is destroyed by its own effect after damage calculation, and damage is inflicted by its effect.
Giant Kozaky is apparently considered "destroyed while face-down" when he is f/d, attacked, flipped, then destroyed. We should be able tlo extrapolate this to D.S. Survivor.
As for the JERP, I'm Babelfishing it and it says:
* When thiscard which exists in reverse side indication receives the attack "of the black magic teacher of chaos,"with damage step becomesthe chart,It is destroyed with battle and in state of grain side indication is excluded from with respect to field, but it does not move the effectwith ended phase.
(Before entering into damage step, at stage you have had to have become the chart)
(More or less: When this card is face-dowm and is attacked by [Dark Magician of Chaos], it is destroyed while face-up, but its effect will not activate in the end phase.)
"Move" and "movement" are Babelfish-ese for "activate." It does not move would mean "it does not activate."
They have the same wording when explaining Fox Fire.
Giant Kozaky is apparently considered "destroyed while face-down" when he is f/d, attacked, flipped, then destroyed. We should be able tlo extrapolate this to D.S. Survivor.
As for the JERP, I'm Babelfishing it and it says:
* When thiscard which exists in reverse side indication receives the attack "of the black magic teacher of chaos,"with damage step becomesthe chart,It is destroyed with battle and in state of grain side indication is excluded from with respect to field, but it does not move the effectwith ended phase.
(Before entering into damage step, at stage you have had to have become the chart)
(More or less: When this card is face-dowm and is attacked by [Dark Magician of Chaos], it is destroyed while face-up, but its effect will not activate in the end phase.)
"Move" and "movement" are Babelfish-ese for "activate." It does not move would mean "it does not activate."
They have the same wording when explaining Fox Fire.
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
Not sure what you are intending to say about Giant Kozaky, since plain English always works better, but they have already stated that D.D. Survivor is removed from play face-up if he is attacked and flipped face-up in the Damage Step.Entropy said:
Also, HorusMaster, "Konami" has determined "Battle" to be when Damage Calculation is performed, not when a monster attacks another monster. Your way of thinking brought about questions when a monster like Mystic Swordsman LV2 or higher attacked and destroyed a face-down Legendary jujitsu master.
By your definition, because they "Battled", he would get his effect when destroyed. By Konami's definition, he would not because there was no Damage Calculation performed.
HorusMaster
New Member
Well, I understand Konami's ruling on definition of "battle". My way of thinking was that an attack equated a battle but that's the military thinking in me. After all, how can you "attack" something without a battle ensuing? But as everyone knows, BKSS.
masterwoo0 said:
I haven't heard anything. We are talking about "If D.D. Survivor is face-down, attacked, and destroyed through battle, does his effect activate?"
And I was comparing it to Giant Kozaky because Giant Kozaky has to be face-up and destroyed to inflict damage. According to the ruling, it its effect doesn't activate if it is f/d, attacked and destroyed. I just use that ruling and apply it to D.D. Survivor.
"Giant Kozacky" doesn't inflict the damage because he's destroyed by the battle before his effect can destroy him and inflict the damage. It's not really the same thing.
On the other hand, woo0, where have they said that his effect activates if it's destroyed by battle when face-down? I've searched the rulings and the judges list and have not seen it addressed...
On the other hand, woo0, where have they said that his effect activates if it's destroyed by battle when face-down? I've searched the rulings and the judges list and have not seen it addressed...
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
D.D. Survivor Vs. Banisher of the Light 2006-04-25 09:49:00 <Sebastian Luszczak>Kyhotae said:
Player A has D.D. Survivor in attack position and Banisher of the Light in
face-up defense position.
Player B has Gemini Elf in attack position.
Player B attacks A's D.D. Survivor.
What will happen with Survivor after it is destroyed?
Will it come back because it was removed with Banishers effect or will it
remain removed because it was destroyed then removed?
/Sebastian
Level 1 YGO! TCG Judge
----------------------------------------------------
"D. D. Survivor" goes from the field straight to the Removed Zone. Since it was face-up on the field when this happened, it will be Special Summoned during the End Phase.
Dan Scheidegger
Jr. Game Designer
Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG R&D
Upper Deck Entertainment
There is no difference between being attacked face-down and flipped face-up in the Damage Step, or, getting attacked face-up. The effect activates if he is removed from the field face-up, regardless of being destroyed in Battle.
krazykidpsx
New Member
told ya woo. now their confused and we need to fix this.
here is how D.D.Surivor works, all he wants is to be sent from the field face-up to the grave.
In battle, well through the steps.
- First is Decleration of attack.
- Effect [ Cylinder, etc...]
- then we decide weather the creature beign attacked is face down or not.
- effect[ If the creature is face down and attacked by Mystic Swordsman Family their effect's will trigger and end their battle from here.
- Then we Flip any face down creatures.
- Battle Damage calculation
- Modifyer effects, Effect negation, etc...
- Resolve the damage and consider creature destroyed or not destroyed.
- Effect [dark ruler/ Flip effect/ Fliped Face up effect / state based effect]
- Battle over.
notice that, that is how battle is conducted and ive preaty much hit every detail and situation.
So the question here is that before D.D. Survivor died it was face up. Poison Draw Frog on the other hand says,
notice that in Parenthesis it stated, UNLESS it was attacked while face-down. it says that the effect will basically erase if when finding out weather the creature is face down or not PDF is face-down. If its face-down ignore its effect.
Unlike D.D.S were it doesnt say that, all it wants is to be sent from the field to the grave face-up. which in this case will happen.
now for thouse still thinking on foxfire:
basically it is stating that again, when declared weather the creature is face-up or not if its face-down its effect will not trigger. and hence forth it wont come back based on its ruling.
but Konami makes the rules, maybe they didnt want to have an abuse with this creature, which btw there very much is. Think about this as a red Treeborn frog if its effect triggered all the time. how annoying would that be?
very... so konami tends to say no no, unless they finaly realise that they made a mistake.
that is how Konami is, untill they say other wise itll remain this way. D.D. S will come back.
and JERP has no value towards what happens in the TCG.
here is how D.D.Surivor works, all he wants is to be sent from the field face-up to the grave.
In battle, well through the steps.
- First is Decleration of attack.
- Effect [ Cylinder, etc...]
- then we decide weather the creature beign attacked is face down or not.
- effect[ If the creature is face down and attacked by Mystic Swordsman Family their effect's will trigger and end their battle from here.
- Then we Flip any face down creatures.
- Battle Damage calculation
- Modifyer effects, Effect negation, etc...
- Resolve the damage and consider creature destroyed or not destroyed.
- Effect [dark ruler/ Flip effect/ Fliped Face up effect / state based effect]
- Battle over.
notice that, that is how battle is conducted and ive preaty much hit every detail and situation.
So the question here is that before D.D. Survivor died it was face up. Poison Draw Frog on the other hand says,
PDF said:
notice that in Parenthesis it stated, UNLESS it was attacked while face-down. it says that the effect will basically erase if when finding out weather the creature is face down or not PDF is face-down. If its face-down ignore its effect.
Unlike D.D.S were it doesnt say that, all it wants is to be sent from the field to the grave face-up. which in this case will happen.
now for thouse still thinking on foxfire:
Fox fire said:
basically it is stating that again, when declared weather the creature is face-up or not if its face-down its effect will not trigger. and hence forth it wont come back based on its ruling.
but Konami makes the rules, maybe they didnt want to have an abuse with this creature, which btw there very much is. Think about this as a red Treeborn frog if its effect triggered all the time. how annoying would that be?
very... so konami tends to say no no, unless they finaly realise that they made a mistake.
that is how Konami is, untill they say other wise itll remain this way. D.D. S will come back.
and JERP has no value towards what happens in the TCG.
Yeah, woo0. I saw that one, but the situation was a "D.D. Survivor" that was already face-up when attacked and destroyed. It's not the same situation and everyone already knows that he will come back if destroyed and removed while face-up. Honestly, the situation hasn't been addressed and there's sufficient similarity to "Fox Fire" to cause confusion (obviously). Not to mention, the whole "effects-aren't-applied-until-after-the-damage-calculation-if-they-survive" thing (ie. "Arsenal Bug" and "Royal Keeper").
krazykidpsx
New Member
correct and that is becuase during damage calculation only modifier and effect negation can be activated.Kyhotae said:
First, Kyhotae, Giant Kozaky's effects are not connected. If he's destroyed through, say, Ring of Destruction, then his effect will still trigger.
Second, if Giant Kozaky is attacked (by, say, Blue-Eyes), he will be flipped face-up. Then he will be destroyed. He will be destroyed while face-up, so he should inflict damage. Right?
Look at the ruling closely. At the very least, it implies that if a f/d monster is attacked and destroyed, it is considered destroyed while face-down.
P.S. The example from the Judge's list has D.D. Survivor in face-up ATK position.
Second, if Giant Kozaky is attacked (by, say, Blue-Eyes), he will be flipped face-up. Then he will be destroyed. He will be destroyed while face-up, so he should inflict damage. Right?
Look at the ruling closely. At the very least, it implies that if a f/d monster is attacked and destroyed, it is considered destroyed while face-down.
P.S. The example from the Judge's list has D.D. Survivor in face-up ATK position.
krazykidpsx
New Member
no no, that isnt the case. your misenturpriting the ruling and how the cards work.Entropy said:
G. Kozaky is very much different, if face down, once he flips his effect wont trigger till after damage calculation becuase the only effect that will apply during damage are Attack/Defense modifiers and Effect negation and the few odd ball cards that are allowed to activate during damage calculation.
In this case he is destroyed face up not face down, but his effect didnt trigger becuase he was considered destroy.
remember the destroyed or not destroy, this is becuase creatures like Dark Ruler need to know if their creature they are battling are considered destroyed so they dont try and activate an effect when DR is overuling their effect [look at Dark Ruler Vs. D.D. Warrior Lady] this is were my statement is supported else it wouldnt, I never understood why but i finally figured it out and till latley i havent been wrong about it becuase it actually puts it self together in a nice little package.
so G. Kozaky vs. D.D.S is not the same thing.
now, Fox Fire and Poison Draw frog are becuase their effect are similar. So far from what i can tell destroyed while face down only applies to creature that have the Sasuke Samurai Effect and Nobleman of Crossout.
Atomic Firefly and Poison Draw Frog both CLEARLY state in their effect text that their effects only activate when attacked while face-up. Fox Fire and Giant Kozaky do not. There is no way to extrapolate from their text that they are supposed to work with way and based on the mechanics of the game and the way the text is phrased, they should not work this way. Particularly does Giant Kozaky's ruling not make sense according to the game rules, because Continuous Effects become active immediately when flipped. There's no mechanical reason he shouldn't have his effect apply when he's flipped in the Damage Step like a Spirit Reaper's would.
Comparing these effects to anything is unfair and is going to lead you down an erroneous path. They contradict the pre-existing game rules. The reason we came up with the phrase BKSS, is because there are many effects that do not fit the existing templating of game mechanics. When they don't fit, it's unwise to try to force them to do so, which is what I believe I'm seeing here.
Remember that, in spite of rulings that contradict logic, logic must still prevail when extrapolating rulings for other cards. We can't use the illogic of one ruling to extrapolate a ruling for another. If we do that then we walk down a shaky path that says Equip Cards can be equipped face-down, all Normal Traps can be activated in the Damage Step and attacks are declared by Monster Cards. We can't use BKSSs to explain other rulings.
Comparing these effects to anything is unfair and is going to lead you down an erroneous path. They contradict the pre-existing game rules. The reason we came up with the phrase BKSS, is because there are many effects that do not fit the existing templating of game mechanics. When they don't fit, it's unwise to try to force them to do so, which is what I believe I'm seeing here.
Remember that, in spite of rulings that contradict logic, logic must still prevail when extrapolating rulings for other cards. We can't use the illogic of one ruling to extrapolate a ruling for another. If we do that then we walk down a shaky path that says Equip Cards can be equipped face-down, all Normal Traps can be activated in the Damage Step and attacks are declared by Monster Cards. We can't use BKSSs to explain other rulings.
krazykidpsx
New Member
Jinzo vs. Cease Fire.Digital Jedi said:
thats all im going to say about continous effects.
Whcih is a Continuous Effect become active inbetween links of a chain. Not one that becomes active when flipped by an attack, where there is no chain.krazykidpsx said:
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
D.D. Survivor doesnt use his effect in the Damage Step, so why would it matter if he is destroyed?Kyhotae said:
His effect states that if he is removed "face-up", he will return. Where does it say that his effect ONLY activates if he is not destroyed in Battle? The last line of the ruling is why I presented the text, as it states quite clearly, if he is face-up when removed, he can be Special Summoned. Just because a monster is considered "destroyed" after Damage Calculation, doesn't take away from the fact that they must FIRST be face-up to Calculate Damage. They certainly don't go back face-down if they survive, so the "face-up" must be a state that they are in regardless of if they live or not.
Wow!! I REALLY didn't notice that when I posted it. And all this time, I just thought "face-up" meant "face-up", and monsters like Sand Moth that get flipped face-up by Desert Sunlight after being targeted by Exiled Force are STILL considered to be destroyed while face-down....Entropy said:
"¢ If a face-down "Sand Moth" is attacked by "Mystic Swordsman LV2" or "Sasuke Samurai" its effect will activate. But if it is attacked by "Drillroid" it will not activate since it will be face-up when it is destroyed by the effect of "Drillroid".
Let me preface this with the fact that I don't necessarily disagree with you, woo0. However, there is confusion because of all the BKSS going on. Unfortunately, Konami hasn't "said so" about this situation, so:
I don't know, but the same could be said for "Fox Fire" because the effect activates in the End Phase, just like "D.D. Survivor". But "Fox Fire" doesn't get to come back.masterwoo0 said:
This is the part that I agree with. I'm just not as certain that it is correct (that is, the way that UDE/Konami would rule it) as you seem to be.
This is an ENTIRELY different situation, and you know it. Moving on...
Believe it or not, this doesn't prove anything because the effect of "Drillroid" activates before damage calculation after the flip. It's a different situation.
The point I was trying to make, however, was that it doesn't matter. Mechanically, based on the text, Fox Fire shouldn't work this way. This is the way they want him to work, obviously, but they should have phrased his text more like Atomic Firefly or Poison Draw Frog, then it would have made perfect sense. But as it stands, Fox Fire is not an appropriate card to use as a templating example, because it's text is not phrased to match its rulings. This would be like trying to use the text on the old Ultimate Offering card before the errata as a basis for how other effects would work. You can't use erroneously phrased text as a basis for templating.Kyhotae said:
How is it a different situation, exactly?