ryu senshi and damage step

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woltarr

New Member
dentetsu X says in his FAQ

2) What cards can be activated during the Damage Step of the Battle Phase?

c) Multi-Trigger Effects that can negate a Spell or Trap card. This includes cards like "Dark Paladin", "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8", "Sorcerer of Dark Chaos", and "Ryu Senshi".


however ryu senhi text says

Ryu Senshi
Attrib: Earth
Type: Warrior/Fusion/Effect
Level:6
Atk: 2000
Def: 1200
"Warrior Dai Grepher" + "Spirit Ryu" A Fusion Summon of this monster can only be conducted with the above Fusion Material Monsters. As long as this card remains face-up on the field, negate the effect of a Normal Trap Card by paying 1000 Life Points. Negate the effects of a Spell Card that targets this card and destroy it.

he says "negate the effct " and not "negate the activation "

while cards like horus 8 says

Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8
Attrib: Fire
Type: Dragon/Effect
Level:8
Atk: 3000
Def: 1800
This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special Summoned except by the effect of "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6". As long as this card remains face-up on your side of the field, you can negate the activation and effect of any Spell Cards and destroy them.


so it seems to be diferent

also in the damage step chat of kevin tewart he mentioned horus 8 BUT not ryu senshi

so my question is

"negate the effct is enough to allow ryu senshi multi trigguer efct be activated in the damage step?"

woltarr
 
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anthonyj said:
In what way does Royal Oppression not fall under the category of a Spell Speed 2 card that Negates the activation and the effect of another card effect?
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And the card that generally is labeled with Royal Oppression in the Damage Step is the Special Summonings from Cyber Jar. Once again I feel that the timing for Royal Oppression to fullfil the whole, "Negate and Destroy" line of text like My Body as a Shield is missed. You don't destroy Cyber Jar because the first thing it does is destroy all monsters on the field. Then you pick up cards and summon monster(s). Last thing to ever happen with Cyber Jar in how it resolves is adding the remaining cards - if any - to the respective hands. Royal Oppression can't negate Cyber Jar or the summonings because it has to negate the summonings and the effect of Cyber Jar in order to even work at all. One of these two things required isn't being met; thus, Royal Oppression's effect can't be activated.

That's just how I see it from a mechanical point of view.

It's similar with My Body as a Shield. Cyber Jar is attacked and it's considered to be destroyed in battle. Destroyed monsters aren't eligible in being affected by card effects at that point. So Cyber Jar just sits their and activates its effect. It's still considered to be destroyed at this point and the effect resolves.

Like I said before, this is just where I see it from a mechanical point of view. Whether I'm right or wrong isn't really a concern for me. Getting the correct answer is.
 
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This a VERY simple standard that is unusualy clear for the Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG. Guys, seriously, your overcomplicating the matter:

Card that can be activated in the Damage Step, simplified:
  1. Counter Trap Cards (Spell Speed 3)
    Seven Tools of the Bandit, Trap Jammer, Curse of Royal, etc.
  2. Cards that specifically modifiy ATK and/or DEF
    Rush Recklessly, Limiter Removal, Blast with Chain, etc.
  3. Cards that require the Damage Step as part of the effect timing
    Injection Fairy Lily, Nutrient Z, Covering Fire, etc.
  4. Exceptions arbitrarily chosen by Konami
    Null and Void, Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8, Chthonian Blast
This is very simple and standard templating for what is Damage Step playable. Nowhere is negation a factor. Everything so far fits into this templating, which if I'm not mistaken, has already been established. Trying to go outside this templating just creates unnecessary confusion that no one can rationlize. Someone give one good peice of evidence that this is NOT the templating already in use.
 
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anthonyj said:
Well that one was just to prove Slither's point. And by the type of effect Watcher has it has to be Speed 2. How could it be chained otherwise?
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*goes to bed*

Time for me to just quit this argument. I obviously don't know what I'm talking about.

Digital Jedi is typing up a 20-minute speech to prove me wrong. What a shame, I've already conceded.

<EDIT: DJ's 20-minute speech lasted only 17 minutes, thereby ruining the point of what I just said>
 
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Twiget: Maybe I'm just not understanding your argument. Royal Oppression can be chained to a Flip Summoned Cyber Jar, and I believe it can even be chained to a Cyber Jar when it has been flipped by Acid Trap Hole (so destroying the card isn't a must for Royal Oppression), as further evidence you can use Royal Oppression against Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys while it is in the Grave. Destroyed isn't the problem here. Like DJ said, Konami/UDE has a very open some do/some don't policy of what Speed 2 cards which don't modify ATK can be activated in the Damage Step. There is no "Rule of Thumb", or "Game Mechanic".
 
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Digital Jedi said:
This a VERY simple standard that is unusualy clear for the Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG. Guys, seriously, your overcomplicating the matter:

Card that can be activated in the Damage Step, simplified:
  1. Counter Trap Cards (Spell Speed 3)
    Seven Tools of the Bandit, Trap Jammer, Curse of Royal, etc.
  2. Cards that specifically modifiy ATK and/or DEF
    Rush Recklessly, Limiter Removal, Blast with Chain, etc.
  3. Cards that require the Damage Step as part of the effect timing
    Injection Fairy Lily, Nutrient Z, Covering Fire, etc.
  4. Exceptions arbitrarily chosen by Konami
    Null and Void, Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8, Chthonian Blast
This is very simple and standard templating for what is Damage Step playable. Nowhere is negation a factor. Everything so far fits into this templating, which if I'm not mistaken, has already been established. Trying to go outside this templating just creates unnecessary confusion that no one can rationlize. Someone give one good peice of evidence that this is NOT the templating already in use.
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I certainly see the view on Chthonian Blast being able to be activated in the damage step providing the right conditions. I liken it very much to Limiter Removal.

In my eyes Limiter Removal directly effects the atk / def because it checks to see if a machine type monster is on the field. In the case of Chthonian Blast it checks to see if multiple copies of the same card name are face up on the field. Seems the same difference to me <shrug> I could be way off in my thinking and I'd look forward to seeing a ruling (and of course Reasoning...but that's not likely to happen) on the issue.
 
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Horus (and the like) are not exceptions...they are Monster Effect versions of the equivilant Counter Traps. Not exceptions to the rule per se.
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Rather than attempt to say something (and embarrass myself) I thought I'd ask a question: Says who? o_0? Where did you come up with them being monster equivalent of counter traps? They aren't ss3, are they?
 
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Chthonian Blast falls under the same category as Michizure...vague text clarified in ruling.

The text alone would absolutely indicate an effect that would not be able to be activated in the Damage Step...but the ruling indicates otherwise very clearly.

This is an exception to the rule for sure.
 
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Jason_C said:
Rather than attempt to say something (and embarrass myself) I thought I'd ask a question: Says who? o_0? Where did you come up with them being monster equivalent of counter traps? They aren't ss3, are they?
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Functionally... they are identical to the equivalent Counter Traps. The Spell Speed is insignificant.

For example, A-Team: Trap Disposal Unit performs basically the same negation effect as Seven Tools of the Bandit... Spell Speed aside... it's the negation effect that I am refering to.
 
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John Danker said:
I certainly see the view on Chthonian Blast being able to be activated in the damage step providing the right conditions. I liken it very much to Limiter Removal.

In my eyes Limiter Removal directly effects the atk / def because it checks to see if a machine type monster is on the field. In the case of Chthonian Blast it checks to see if multiple copies of the same card name are face up on the field. Seems the same difference to me <shrug> I could be way off in my thinking and I'd look forward to seeing a ruling (and of course Reasoning...but that's not likely to happen) on the issue.
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I'd like to take this opportunity to correct John (wow something I've never done before). I believe we have mixed up Chthonian Blast with Aqua Chorus here.
 
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since we're so into the "multi-trigger" issue, let me make a list of all of them and those that can and can't be used during the damage step:

A-Team: Trap Disposal Unit - Can
Blue-Eyes Shining Dragon - Can
Charm of Shabti - Can
Dark Balter the Terrible - Can't (duh)
Dark Paladin - Can
Desrook Archfiend - Can
Gravekeeper's Watcher - Can't
Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8 - Can
Injection Fairy Lily - Can (only)
Kazejin - Can (only)
Kuriboh - Can (only)
Maryokutai - Can
Ryu Senshi - Can't
Sanga of the Thunder - Can (only)
Sorcerer of Dark Magic - Can
Strike Ninja - Can't
Suijin - Can (only)
Winged Kuriboh LV10 - Can't
 
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novastar said:
Functionally... they are identical to the equvilant Counter Traps. The Spell Speed is insignificant.

For example, A-Team: Trap Disposal Unit performs basically the same negation effect as Seven Tools of the Bandit... Spell Speed aside... it's the negation effect that I am refering to.
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I believe Nova has hit the nail on the head. I believe that that is exactly what Takahashi had in mind when he determined these monsters would be eligible during the Damage Step while other Speed 2 Spells and Traps that negate often are not. Many things that seem to make little sense from a design and consistency standpoint come down to the way The Creator of the game has in mind for things to work. Hence the large bottles of aspirin and huge numbers of hours many of us spend trying to keep up with such a flawless system. :)
 
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Blah, seems like the more we dig up the more bullcrap information we find.

Lets just leave it on the grounds that these errors will be never ending and will pop up continuously until Konami finally tells UDE to resolve the issues or resolves them theirselves.

Will this happen? Probably not. :djmorph
 
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