Skill Drain & Toon Gemini Elf
- Thread starter anthonyj
- Start date
I would think the Armor Exe ruling #2 would be more relevant in that it states the restriction is erased by flipping the monster down and face up again. Certainly a strong argument that Skill Drain removing the restriction should be sufficient even if it leaves the field afterwards. But as we have certainly seen rulings go in opposite directions from what would be sensible when dealing with UDE and Konami, it could be called differently in this circumstance.
I think the "restrictions" of Ultimate Obedient Fiend and Toon Gemini Elf are not so much restrictions as they are effects. It's written on the card, ergo it's an effect. Ultimate Obedient Fiend has an effect which states it cannot attack with other cards present, and Toon Gemini Elf has an effect which states it cannot attack in the same turn it is Summoned.
Skill Drain wipes these effects, allowing both to attack, and when Skill Drain leaves the field Ultimate Obedient Fiend cannot attack with other cards present, and Toon Gemini Elf cannot attack in the turn that it is Summoned. Just as Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast remembers how it is Summoned for its effect, so Toon Gemini Elf remembers in which turn it is Summoned, and its effect stops it from attacking accordingly.
I would vote to say it's that simple.
Skill Drain wipes these effects, allowing both to attack, and when Skill Drain leaves the field Ultimate Obedient Fiend cannot attack with other cards present, and Toon Gemini Elf cannot attack in the turn that it is Summoned. Just as Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast remembers how it is Summoned for its effect, so Toon Gemini Elf remembers in which turn it is Summoned, and its effect stops it from attacking accordingly.
I would vote to say it's that simple.
Dark Elf is an effect that adds a cost, but the 2000 LP is still a cost.
Oh, and Ultimate Obedient Fiend's effect can turn on and off, but the restriction on Toon Gemini Elf can only turn off.
Oh, and Ultimate Obedient Fiend's effect can turn on and off, but the restriction on Toon Gemini Elf can only turn off.
Maruno said:
Fusilier will be 2800 ATK once Skill Drain has resolved onto the field. Even if Skill Drain leaves the field it will remain at 2800. That effect is turned off and stays off.
It really does come down to what Konami decides to rule for this particular card. I just wish there was a process that didn't include the possibility of permanently waiting for an answer like we are with Priority.
I wasn't referring to Fusilier vs. Skill Drain. I'm just saying that it remembers how it was Summoned. I suppose Skill Drain in this case makes Fusilier Dragon forget how it was Summoned (thus giving it its 2800/2000 stats, following its ruling).
But with the case of remembering which turn it was Summoned in (the Toon Gemini Elf question), that could go either way.
The effect which states it cannot attack in the turn it is Summoned is not a restriction in itself. The condition placed on Toon Gemini Elf when it is Summoned which says when it was Summoned is what we're really asking about. The non-attacking effect looks at this condition to see if it is applicable, after all. Is this condition erased by Skill Drain? Again, the answer could go either way.
I'd say it probably should. There's no reason for Skill Drain to remove one condition (method of Summoning) and not the other condition (time of Summoning). But we'll wait to see what Konami has to say about it.
But with the case of remembering which turn it was Summoned in (the Toon Gemini Elf question), that could go either way.
The effect which states it cannot attack in the turn it is Summoned is not a restriction in itself. The condition placed on Toon Gemini Elf when it is Summoned which says when it was Summoned is what we're really asking about. The non-attacking effect looks at this condition to see if it is applicable, after all. Is this condition erased by Skill Drain? Again, the answer could go either way.
I'd say it probably should. There's no reason for Skill Drain to remove one condition (method of Summoning) and not the other condition (time of Summoning). But we'll wait to see what Konami has to say about it.
chaosruler
New Member
Well, I feel inclined to chime in here. I personally believe that Toon Gemini Elf would be able to attack that turn. Here's my proof:
This is a clear example of the fact that Skill Drain will remove the condition that prevents attacking. I don't see how this isn't a perfect parallel. If someone already brought this up, I'm sorry, I haven't had time to read this whole thread.
EDIT: Regardless of if Skill Drain is removed from the field or not, Armor Exe cannot replace the condition on itself that prevents it from attacking. I don't see how that could be true for Toon Gemini Elf. I agree with Anthonyj here.
-chaosruler
RONIN for [ycard="DR1-EN130" said:
This is a clear example of the fact that Skill Drain will remove the condition that prevents attacking. I don't see how this isn't a perfect parallel. If someone already brought this up, I'm sorry, I haven't had time to read this whole thread.
EDIT: Regardless of if Skill Drain is removed from the field or not, Armor Exe cannot replace the condition on itself that prevents it from attacking. I don't see how that could be true for Toon Gemini Elf. I agree with Anthonyj here.
-chaosruler
Thing is using Armor Exe as your example, the rulings talk about Skill Drain still on the field. If you used Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning's effect to remove a monster from play and Skill Drain was activated to negate that effect. Well, later in the turn you destroy Skill Drain. Can you use the effect again that turn? No. So with Armor Exe or Toons, if it's the turn they are summoned, that condition doesn't change if Skill Drain leaves the field and their effects all pop back up, good and bad.
Andrew you cannot use a general statement like that, it doesn't work.
BLS's activation is not the same. It is a usage restriction on activation, completely different than TGE. Skill Drain does not affect activation whatsoever.
The Armor Exe ruling points in neither direction.
BLS's activation is not the same. It is a usage restriction on activation, completely different than TGE. Skill Drain does not affect activation whatsoever.
The Armor Exe ruling points in neither direction.
BLS's "can't attack this turn" is a side effect, actually. Side effects aren't negated unless the effect activation is negated, like with Soul Exchange or Reckless Greed.
But yeah, it's completely different from TGE.
But yeah, it's completely different from TGE.
It's not a side effect, it is an Effect Activation condition, that is placed as soon as you try to activate the effect. Similar to Blowback Dragon.
It is not like Reckless Greed or Soul Exchange as those are "side effects" as you stated, that will only occur if the effect properly resolves.
It is not like Reckless Greed or Soul Exchange as those are "side effects" as you stated, that will only occur if the effect properly resolves.
The Armor Exe ruling that the restriction would be removed if activated at some point after summoning completely kills the idea of side effect that has to be negated at activation. I don't think anyone here is unclear that this is an "effect" that "restricts" when the monster can attack, identical to Armor Exe and similar to Ultimate Obedient Fiend. Thus the only question is a) Continuous (like Ultimate Obedient Fiend) or b) single-shot applied upon summon (and thus once erased by Skill Drain it doesn't matter if drain stays or leaves). As stated ad nauseum there is no "Official Ruling" on this effect (unless there is one under one of the toons or Armor Exe in the OCG rulings).
Raijinili any chance you have run across anything in that area?
Raijinili any chance you have run across anything in that area?
But BLS also has that "once per turn".novastar said:
We'll just have to see when the Divine Wrath VS BLS, DNA Surgery, and Heavy Mech Support Platform ruling comes out, wouldn't we?
I was actually thinking of Scapegoat. Reckless Greed and Soul Exchange turned out not to be side-effects, although that now leaves the question of why Reckless Greed can be Null and Void'ed.novastar said:
NO, it does NOT. Armor Exe doesn't even have an effect to activate that would give it a side effect. THAT is NOT a side effect. Both novastar and I said that Armor Exe and TGE are DIFFERENT from BLS.anthonyj said:
In fact, Scapegoat VS Magic Jammer/Imperial Order. That shows the side-effect.
And the ruling on Armor Exe is wrong. It's pronounced "ekze", as it is in "execute". >_>
Any card that mentions Spell Counters can hold Spell Counters.
But I guess if the counter is not on EXE, it's not a cost? Haha.
Interestingly, the JERP has a ruling that you can sacrifice a Monster Token as a regular monster to maintain its existence. But you DON'T sacrifice monsters for its upkeep...
But I guess if the counter is not on EXE, it's not a cost? Haha.
Interestingly, the JERP has a ruling that you can sacrifice a Monster Token as a regular monster to maintain its existence. But you DON'T sacrifice monsters for its upkeep...
It's a lie. I'm sure of it. The only cards that can hold Spell Counters are those saying "Each time you or your opponent activates 1 Spell Card, put 1 Spell Counter on this card" (or the Breaker or Pitch-Black Power Stone variants on that wording).
As I mentioned before, I'm sure the deal with all this is that the effect of the Toon is looking at the condition placed upon that monster which says when it was Summoned. If the condition says it was Summoned that turn, the effect is applicable and the Toon can't attack. If it was Summoned in a previous turn, then the effect is not applied (because the condition doesn't make the effect applicable here).
When Skill Drain is activated, it removes this condition that says when the card was Summoned (along with how it was Summoned in Fusilier's case). If Skill Drain is removed later in the turn, that condition is still missing. There is no condition for the effect to refer to, and so the effect cannot be made applicable by it. Therefore the Toon can attack that turn.
As I mentioned before, I'm sure the deal with all this is that the effect of the Toon is looking at the condition placed upon that monster which says when it was Summoned. If the condition says it was Summoned that turn, the effect is applicable and the Toon can't attack. If it was Summoned in a previous turn, then the effect is not applied (because the condition doesn't make the effect applicable here).
When Skill Drain is activated, it removes this condition that says when the card was Summoned (along with how it was Summoned in Fusilier's case). If Skill Drain is removed later in the turn, that condition is still missing. There is no condition for the effect to refer to, and so the effect cannot be made applicable by it. Therefore the Toon can attack that turn.
John Danker
Administrator
Before we jump to conclusions (I guess it's a bit late for that at this point anyway) Let me say that I've posted this question to the judge's board. When there is a clear cut or known answer to a question I usually get an answer within a week. Shortly after I posted this question is was noted on another board by Kevin in a thread regarding the Bait Doll / Activation without payment issue that the Bait Doll question has been moved down his priority list from #355 to #356 because a Toon question was just put in the #355 slot before it <laffin> I can't help but wonder <pondering>
These are some of the reasons this question has become the first in the "Unsolved Mysteries" Sticky. The Bait Doll question is next up as soon as I have time to post it.
These are some of the reasons this question has become the first in the "Unsolved Mysteries" Sticky. The Bait Doll question is next up as soon as I have time to post it.
daivahataka
Gold Member
He has a priority list? And these questions are only 355 & 356!? Do I even want to know what came before them...
John Danker
Administrator
I could tell you some of them....but then the Konami ninjas would take me out....and then you. We don't want to go there! <smirk>