Skill Drain & Toon Gemini Elf
- Thread starter anthonyj
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John Danker
Administrator
Interesting conversation isn't it? 
You see why I brought up the Fusilier ruling. It's obviously not as cut and dried as it might first appear. (thanks anthonyj for bringing the topic up)
Regardless of weather there is a ruling on it in existance it forces us to examine things more closely and sort out the game mechanics in our own minds. This, to me, is one of the greatest assets of this forum. Forcing us to work through mechanics and rulings and justify them. That's when we REALLY learn.
You see why I brought up the Fusilier ruling. It's obviously not as cut and dried as it might first appear. (thanks anthonyj for bringing the topic up)Regardless of weather there is a ruling on it in existance it forces us to examine things more closely and sort out the game mechanics in our own minds. This, to me, is one of the greatest assets of this forum. Forcing us to work through mechanics and rulings and justify them. That's when we REALLY learn.
anthonyj said:
And yet, this effect is still present in the Grave, after the conditions for activating have occured.
Was it Digital Jedi or densetsu_x who mentioned that this card was a strange combination of trigger and continuous? The effect is triggered when summoned under certain conditions, yet is continuously applied in the Graveyard, when there is no other affecting circumstances, like Skill Drain, that has 'erased' the previous trigger.....
uh, oh.
*runs for the Advil*
That isn't "In the Grave". It is what it was "when it was destroyed and sent to the grave". It is also another reason why it is not a "continuous effect" as a monster's "continuous effect" is turned off as soon as it is destroyed in battle. The same would be true of Shinato killing Fuselier. The "Original Attack" when it was destroyed was 1400 due to its ability to modify that when summoned. If you summon that same Fuselier with Premature Burial is he a 1400 monster or a 2800 monster? Rulings 1 and 4 for Elemental Hero Flame Wingman should be rolled up and used to swat Upperdeck on the nose for once again failing to give complete information about the mechanics of a card. That is the type of sloppy work that keeps so many players in the dark regarding rulings.
Ok..lol, wow...
I still say Toon Gemini Elf's summoning part is a condition rather than a trigger, however it could be both for all we know. For just this example's sack, let's say that it's both. >_<
If you Magic Jammer, Solemn Judgment, Magic Drain (And they don't discard) or any other means of negating a Soul Exchange and Last Will. Do the conditions they make vanish as well? Of course they do!
So if Skill Drain negates effects resolving, then that means whether or not Fusilier was summoned via Tribute or Normal summoning doesn't matter, it's effect was negated and there for if Skill Drain leaves the field it won't reset because the action of it being summoned hasn't happened again. (By Reset I mean reset back to the stats it was summoned such as 1400/1000)
This should apply to Toon Gemini Elf as well. If you negate the effect (which off it is after thinking and getting rest on it) I'm pretty sure the same occurance will happen here. Skill Drain negates the whole effect from resolving, at that point the effect of Toon Gemini Elf would reset after Skill Drain leaves. Meaning, reset to the point where Toon Gemini Elf thinks it was summoned a turn or more ago.
If you negate a card with a condition like Soul Exchange then you can proceed with your battle phase. (This includes Toon Gemini Elf for consitent examples...)
I still say Toon Gemini Elf's summoning part is a condition rather than a trigger, however it could be both for all we know. For just this example's sack, let's say that it's both. >_<
If you Magic Jammer, Solemn Judgment, Magic Drain (And they don't discard) or any other means of negating a Soul Exchange and Last Will. Do the conditions they make vanish as well? Of course they do!
So if Skill Drain negates effects resolving, then that means whether or not Fusilier was summoned via Tribute or Normal summoning doesn't matter, it's effect was negated and there for if Skill Drain leaves the field it won't reset because the action of it being summoned hasn't happened again. (By Reset I mean reset back to the stats it was summoned such as 1400/1000)
This should apply to Toon Gemini Elf as well. If you negate the effect (which off it is after thinking and getting rest on it) I'm pretty sure the same occurance will happen here. Skill Drain negates the whole effect from resolving, at that point the effect of Toon Gemini Elf would reset after Skill Drain leaves. Meaning, reset to the point where Toon Gemini Elf thinks it was summoned a turn or more ago.
If you negate a card with a condition like Soul Exchange then you can proceed with your battle phase. (This includes Toon Gemini Elf for consitent examples...)
but comparing Magic Jammer, Solemn Judgment, and Magic Drain to Skill Drain isn't accurate.
jammer and Drain negate the activation of effects. Solemn can negate the activation of the card itself (in the case of monsters)
Skill Drain does not negate the activation, only the resolution.
However, if we were to compare then, if Magic Jammer were to negate Tribute of the Doomed, would it negate the cost paid by the player (the discard)? No.
If Skill Drain were to negate the effect of Toon Gemini, would the condition associated with its summoning simply cease to exist, even if Skill Drain were removed from the field? Again, I think no. I wont say that conclusively, as the ruling from earlier Toons does associate the 'no attack' clause more with effect, than condition.
Im going to try and keep from referring to the similarities and contrasts with Fusilier right now, because I think I would get my point jumbled up. However, I will admit there are some discrepancies between the rulings and even my thinking.
But till I get it clearer...*swallows Advil*
jammer and Drain negate the activation of effects. Solemn can negate the activation of the card itself (in the case of monsters)
Skill Drain does not negate the activation, only the resolution.
However, if we were to compare then, if Magic Jammer were to negate Tribute of the Doomed, would it negate the cost paid by the player (the discard)? No.
If Skill Drain were to negate the effect of Toon Gemini, would the condition associated with its summoning simply cease to exist, even if Skill Drain were removed from the field? Again, I think no. I wont say that conclusively, as the ruling from earlier Toons does associate the 'no attack' clause more with effect, than condition.
Im going to try and keep from referring to the similarities and contrasts with Fusilier right now, because I think I would get my point jumbled up. However, I will admit there are some discrepancies between the rulings and even my thinking.
But till I get it clearer...*swallows Advil*
*steals Advil and takes a few*
I understand man. Just trying to understand this the best I can. If the effect's resolution is being negated then wouldn't that in turn negate the effect completely? (I think it has to do with the fact Skill Drain is a continuous trap card.)
So Skill Drain will negate the resolution of Toon Gemini Elf's effect. Including the summoning aspect of the card text? If that's the case, Skill Drain won't reset that as it's not a card stat such as in Fusilier Dragon, the Duel-Mode Beast's method in which it was summoned.
Since neither monster is being summoned again, the summoning aspect of the effect doesn't reset at the point of when the monster was set. If that's the case then Toon Gemini Elf can attack when Skill Drain leaves the field. Just like how Fusilier regains the attack and defense when both Skill Drain is on and then leaves the field. It still retains those stat points because it wasn't being summoned agian. Same goes for Toon Gemini Elf.
I understand man. Just trying to understand this the best I can. If the effect's resolution is being negated then wouldn't that in turn negate the effect completely? (I think it has to do with the fact Skill Drain is a continuous trap card.)
So Skill Drain will negate the resolution of Toon Gemini Elf's effect. Including the summoning aspect of the card text? If that's the case, Skill Drain won't reset that as it's not a card stat such as in Fusilier Dragon, the Duel-Mode Beast's method in which it was summoned.
Since neither monster is being summoned again, the summoning aspect of the effect doesn't reset at the point of when the monster was set. If that's the case then Toon Gemini Elf can attack when Skill Drain leaves the field. Just like how Fusilier regains the attack and defense when both Skill Drain is on and then leaves the field. It still retains those stat points because it wasn't being summoned agian. Same goes for Toon Gemini Elf.
John Danker
Administrator
Are we ready to send this to the judge's list yet or has anyone revealed conclusive information that I'm not seeing?
I would be very happy to see it sent to the Judge's list. I'm still leaning towards the Skill Drain leaves Gemini can't attack because it is a continuous effect restriction and Gemini doesn't forget that she was summoned this round. But I'd really like to see what the powers that be will decide.
please do. I think what we are all going to be hanging on is whether Toon Gemini Elf will be ruled consistently according to the other Toon's non attacking effect. Or whether that part of TGE will be viewed separately, as a condition, due to the phrasing in the text.
That and whether it is a triggered effect due to summoning, or continuous. Is there a way to word your question, John, so that we can have it answered as to whether or not similar treatments should exist for Fusilier?
That and whether it is a triggered effect due to summoning, or continuous. Is there a way to word your question, John, so that we can have it answered as to whether or not similar treatments should exist for Fusilier?
John Danker
Administrator
Too late I'm afraid. I've already sent the question in as orginally stated in the opening post of this thread.
*Steals Advil jar and starts flicking Advils at people's heads*
It got entirely too little sleep for this discussion. Looks like an effect to me.
It got entirely too little sleep for this discussion. Looks like an effect to me.
Both actually. You summon him while Skill Drain is on the field and his effect activates and OH!...sorry, can't resolve there buddy. Then Skill Drain leaves the field that same turn and...well...nothing resolved so "ROAR!"
I just checked the rulings on Armor Exe and was surprised at what they say about this not attacking in the round it is summoned:
If you Summon "Armor Exe", flip it face-down with "Book of Moon", and flip it face-up with "Book of Taiyou", it CAN attack because its non-attack effect was reset and because flipping it face-up with "Book of Taiyou" was NOT a Flip Summon.
If "Skill Drain" is active and "Armor Exe" is Summoned, or if "Skill Drain" is activated after "Armor Exe" is Summoned, in both cases "Armor Exe" CAN attack the same turn it was Summoned.
As this is the only other monster I can think of with a specific can't attack the round summoned (other than the toons) I am having to lean towards this being a trigger effect that can be reset instead of a continuous effect.
Is it too late to reverse my position and say "Yes, Toon Gemini Elf can attack in the round it is summoned after an active Skill Drain has left the field?
If you Summon "Armor Exe", flip it face-down with "Book of Moon", and flip it face-up with "Book of Taiyou", it CAN attack because its non-attack effect was reset and because flipping it face-up with "Book of Taiyou" was NOT a Flip Summon.
If "Skill Drain" is active and "Armor Exe" is Summoned, or if "Skill Drain" is activated after "Armor Exe" is Summoned, in both cases "Armor Exe" CAN attack the same turn it was Summoned.
As this is the only other monster I can think of with a specific can't attack the round summoned (other than the toons) I am having to lean towards this being a trigger effect that can be reset instead of a continuous effect.
Is it too late to reverse my position and say "Yes, Toon Gemini Elf can attack in the round it is summoned after an active Skill Drain has left the field?
Wouldn't be the first time one of us had to do a quick about face. Never had that problem myself, though......what?.....Stop looking at me. <Runs away>
Never had that problem myself, though......what?.....Stop looking at me. <Runs away>"This card cannot attack during the turn that it is Normal Summoned, Flip Summoned, or Special Summoned."
When Skill Drain is on the field, the above effect is negated, and does not return.
That is not a Trigger whatsoever.
It is an lingering effect (condition for those that like that term) that resolves onto the object when it is summoned.
As far as Fusilier is concerned, it is "continuous-like" although in reality it is a unique effect on its own. It is not however, a Trigger at all.
In both case there is no activation point and they are continuous in nature.
When Skill Drain is on the field, the above effect is negated, and does not return.
That is not a Trigger whatsoever.
It is an lingering effect (condition for those that like that term) that resolves onto the object when it is summoned.
As far as Fusilier is concerned, it is "continuous-like" although in reality it is a unique effect on its own. It is not however, a Trigger at all.
In both case there is no activation point and they are continuous in nature.
just to be a stubborn pain, I want to point out that the rulings for Armor Exe still dont account for what would happen if Skill Drain were removed from the field later in the same turn
The ruling about BoM is consistent, and it Does point out that Taiyou doesn't 'summon' that turn.
And last, what in the WORLD is with ruling #1? LOL!
The ruling about BoM is consistent, and it Does point out that Taiyou doesn't 'summon' that turn.
And last, what in the WORLD is with ruling #1? LOL!