Sometimes you just want to scream at them..

Tkwiget

Da Twiggy Man!
Alright, I was in a discussion with some people on another site. Here are the situations we're talking about.

Turn Player activates Premature Burial and Special Summons Proto-Cyber Dragon. Turn Player responds with Inferno Reckless Summon. Turn Player searches deck and Special Summons three copies of Cyber Dragon to the field.

The question here was if this was legally played. I say it isn't because then you have 4 copies of Cyber Dragon on the field and this violates the number of copies per deck rule.

Now the other situation.

Drillroid attacks Ancient Lamp. Ancient Lamp will not activate and will be destroyed by Drillroid's effect.

I said this is false because Ancient Lamp has a redirecting effect similiar to Dreamsprite. Thus, I concluded that Ancient Lamp would activate and Drillroid's effect would Disappear.

Just want thoughts on the two situations.
 
Proto-Cyber Dragon is considered to be Cyber Dragon while on the field. That's what it does. If you already have one on the field then you can only have a maximum of two more on the field. You can only have a maximum of three copies considered to be of the same name on the field.

Also, I didn't say Proto-Cyber Dragon would be summoned out, I said Cyber Dragon would. I never said anything about having three copies of Proto-Cyber Dragon and Cyber Dragon in the same deck nor did I say anything about summoning Proto-Cyber Dragon copies from Inferno Reckless Summon.
 
Tkwiget said:
Proto-Cyber Dragon is considered to be Cyber Dragon while on the field. That's what it does. If you already have one on the field then you can only have a maximum of two more on the field. You can only have a maximum of three copies considered to be of the same name on the field.

Also, I didn't say Proto-Cyber Dragon would be summoned out, I said Cyber Dragon would. I never said anything about having three copies of Proto-Cyber Dragon and Cyber Dragon in the same deck nor did I say anything about summoning Proto-Cyber Dragon copies from Inferno Reckless Summon.

Twig, calm down. You are getting confused. This only applies to the Deck building itself, not while in a Duel. There is nothing stopping you from having as many copy of the same monster on your side of the field through Brain Control, Mind Control, Change of Heart, and so on. There was never a rule saying how many of a certain monster you can have on your field unless it states so like Gravekeeper's Chief.
 
AGreed, this is why I'm hoping that something gets limited in this regard. The use of Proto will allow for a theoretical 6 Cyber Dragons in a deck, if only by name. The fact that it only activates this ability while face up on the field makes it possible. This is different than the Harpy Ladies, which have their effect always in play.
 
No it activates right before Damage Calculations like Dreamsprite since the two effects are similar in how they function. They redirect an attack to another target and proceed to Damage Calculations from there with the new attack target.
 
I'm sorry, I meant the Damage Step, not Calculation. I misread the effect text. Technically, I could see it destroying both monsters. But then I'm not up on what is and isn't battle nowadays.
 
Ok, here's the scoop on "Ancient Lamp".....

There are currently NO posted rulings for "Ancient Lamp". Here is what I am basing my answers on...

"Ancient Lamp" - "When this face-down Defense Position card is attacked by your opponent's monster, you can make 1 opponent's monster (except the attacking monster) be attacked instead. While this card is face-up on the field, you can Special Summon 1 "La Jinn the Mystical Genie of the Lamp" from your hand."

"Dreamsprite" - "When attacked by your opponent's monster, select another 1 of your Monster Cards and designate it as the attack's target, then calculate damage."

"Drillroid" - "If this card attacks a Defense Position monster, destroy the monster with this card's effect without applying damage calculation."


These two cards ("Ancient Lamp" and "Dreamsprite") are functionally identical when attacked while in face-down defense position.


Ruling: "The effect of "Dreamsprite" is not optional so if you have at least 1 other monster on the field when "Dreamsprite" is attacked, the attack target is changed to your other monster. This is also true if "Dreamsprite" is attacked when face-down."

Ruling: "If "Drillroid" attacks "Dreamsprite", both are mandatory Trigger Effects with the same timing, so they form a chain with "Dreamsprite" as Chain Link 2. "Dreamsprite" resolves first and, according to her effect, causes damage calculation to happen immediately. Since the effect of "Drillroid" only happens without damage calculation, the effect of "Drillroid" Disappears."

Ruling: "Note that "Drillroid" does not say "without flipping the monster face-up". The effect of "Drillroid" is applied after the monster is flipped face-up, but before damage calculation. If the Defense Position monster was face-down and has a Flip Effect, the Flip Effect will activate and resolve normally."

Battle Phase chart: Damage Step:**1

1. Sub-step 1: Some Trigger-Effect will activate and resolve now.
* (Examples are "Sasuke Samurai", "Paladin of White Dragon", "Mystic Swordsman LV2", and "Mystic Swordsman LV 4").
2. Sub-step 2: Flip target card face-up if face down.
* Continuous Effect monster that was flipped are now Active (Examples are "Jinzo", "Goblin King", "The Agent of Force - Mars"). However, Continuous Effect that involves destroying monster(s) will not resolve until Sub-step 5.
* Trigger Effect that activates during Damage Step activates and resolves now. (Examples are "Reflect Bounder", if attacked while in Attack Position, inflicts damage to the opponent now).
* "Cross Counter" can be activated here.
3. Sub-step 3: Damage Calculation part 1: Calculate damage.

I'll point out a few things here:

The effect of "Drillroid" is applied after the monster is flipped face-up, but before damage calculation.
If "Drillroid" attacks "Dreamsprite", both are mandatory Trigger Effects with the same timing.
This is also true if "Dreamsprite" is attacked when face-down.

So, putting all of this together. There is only one spot where "Drillroid"s effect will activate. That is Sub-step 2 of the Damage Step, at the same time "Reflect Bounder" would activate it's 1st effect. This is the only time effects that activate AFTER the monster has been flipped face-up but BEFORE you begin Damage Calculation. Since both "Drillroid" and "Dreamsprite" have the same timing (as per the ruling stated), there is only 1 conclusion to come to. "Dreamsprite"s effect will ONLY be able to activate during Sub-step 2 of the Damage Step, after being flipped face-up by the attack and before Damage Calculation. And since both "Dreamsprite" and "Ancient Lamp" are functionally the same when attacked while in face-down defense position, it's pretty 'safe' to say, that would be the same timing for "Ancient Lamp" as well.
 
I just realized I may have posted all of that for nothing..lol.

It seems I misunderstood something Tkwiget stated earlier.

There is a key difference between "Dreamsprite" and "Ancient Lamp". "Dreamsprite" forces the attack into Damage Calculation immediately after redirecting the attack.

"Ancient Lamp" does not do this.

So if the attack of "Drillroid" is redirected to another defense position monster, it's effect should still destroy that new monster. His ("Drillroid") effect does not target, btw...
 
JERP Ruling #2 on Ancient Lamp:

When this card is in face defense position, changing the attack to another opponents monster, the timing for it is in the beggining of damage step, and this is the time for the effect to trigger. (Before the damage calculation)
 
I think the important part is found here:

Ruling: "If "Drillroid" attacks "Dreamsprite", both are mandatory Trigger Effects with the same timing, so they form a chain with "Dreamsprite" as Chain Link 2. "Dreamsprite" resolves first and, according to her effect, causes damage calculation to happen immediately. Since the effect of "Drillroid" only happens without damage calculation, the effect of "Drillroid" Disappears."

Since Ancient Lamp doesn't fast forward to damage calculation you would select a new target for Drillroid to attack and then his effect would resolve and destroy Ancient Lamp. The attack would then proceed to Damage Calculation with the new target (Drillroid's effect would not trigger again with the new target).
 
Ok, "Drillroid" does not target. So, if we go by the ruling "Drillroid" .vs "Dreamsprite", here's some possible outcomes....

Constants:
"Drillroid"s effect gets placed as step 1.
"Ancient Lamp"s effect gets placed as step 2.
No other effects are involved.

Outcomes:

1. "Ancient Lamp" resolves and redirects to a face-up defense position monster.
"Drillroid" resolves, and since his effect does not target, will destroy the new monster before Damage Calculation, "Ancient Lamp" is NOT destroyed.

2. "Ancient Lamp" resolves and redirects to a face-up defense position monster.
"Drillroid" resolves, and destroys "Ancient Lamp" before Damage Calculation. Do we proceed with the new attack?

3. "Ancient Lamp" resolves and redirects to a face-up attack position monster.
"Drillroid" resolves, but is no longer attacking a defense position monster, so it's effect 'fizzles', and the attack is continued into the Damage Step as normal, "Ancient Lamp" is NOT destroyed.

4. "Ancient Lamp" resolves and redirects to a face-up atatck position monster.
"Drillroid" resolves and destroys the "Ancient Lamp". Do we proceed with the new attack?

5. "Ancient Lamp" resolves and redirects to a face-down defense position monster.
Ummm...when does the new monster get flipped? Since we've already passed that point in the Damage Step, how does this proceed? If we 'rewind' back to flipping the new monster face-up, then "Drillroid" should destroy it with it's effect still.
 
anthonyj said:
I think the important part is found here:

Ruling: "If "Drillroid" attacks "Dreamsprite", both are mandatory Trigger Effects with the same timing, so they form a chain with "Dreamsprite" as Chain Link 2. "Dreamsprite" resolves first and, according to her effect, causes damage calculation to happen immediately. Since the effect of "Drillroid" only happens without damage calculation, the effect of "Drillroid" Disappears."

Since Ancient Lamp doesn't fast forward to damage calculation you would select a new target for Drillroid to attack and then his effect would resolve and destroy Ancient Lamp. The attack would then proceed to Damage Calculation with the new target (Drillroid's effect would not trigger again with the new target).

<laffin hard> This is just what we needed. Something to complicate things a little. This game was getting a little to easy <smirk>
 
1. "Ancient Lamp" resolves and redirects to a face-up defense position monster.
"Drillroid" resolves, and since his effect does not target, will destroy the new monster before Damage Calculation, "Ancient Lamp" is NOT destroyed.

'Drillroid''s effect is not re-activated against the new attack target, 'Ancient Lamp' is not destroyed.

2. "Ancient Lamp" resolves and redirects to a face-up defense position monster.
"Drillroid" resolves, and destroys "Ancient Lamp" before Damage Calculation. Do we proceed with the new attack?

'Ancient Lamp' is not destroyed, refer to #1.

3. "Ancient Lamp" resolves and redirects to a face-up attack position monster.
"Drillroid" resolves, but is no longer attacking a defense position monster, so it's effect 'fizzles', and the attack is continued into the Damage Step as normal, "Ancient Lamp" is NOT destroyed.

correct.

4. "Ancient Lamp" resolves and redirects to a face-up atatck position monster.
"Drillroid" resolves and destroys the "Ancient Lamp". Do we proceed with the new attack?

refer to #2.

5. "Ancient Lamp" resolves and redirects to a face-down defense position monster.
Ummm...when does the new monster get flipped? Since we've already passed that point in the Damage Step, how does this proceed? If we 'rewind' back to flipping the new monster face-up, then "Drillroid" should destroy it with it's effect still.

you flip the monster face-up, then proceed to Damage Calculation, 'Drillroid''s effect is not re-applied in either case.
 
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