Thunder Dragon

C

ChaosMachine

New Member
Can i discard a Thunder Dragon if the other two are already in the graveyard? and will Thunder Dragons effect trigger if discarded for Dark Core?
 
Sort by date Sort by votes
The link is, if you dont activate an effect, its not the same thing as saying you "could" return up to 2 monsters. You could, but you didnt, so if I wanted to Divine Wrath Penguin Soldier, I couldnt because you never used the effect.

If shuffling was part of Thunder Dragon's effect, wouldnt I be able to Divine Wrath him when it came to activating this part of his effect when it triggered in the Graveyard?

Shuffling isnt part of the effect. This card is from Metal Raiders. It was pretty much a standard statement with Searchers...


Giant Rat
Effect Monster (Beast / EARTH / 4 Stars / ATK 1400 / DEF 1450)

When this card is sent to the Graveyard as a result of battle, you can Special Summon 1 EARTH monster with an ATK of 1500 or less in face-up Attack Position from your Deck. Then shuffle your Deck.

Mystic Tomato
Effect Monster (Plant / DARK / 4 Stars / ATK 1400 / DEF 1100)

When this card is sent to the Graveyard as a result of battle, you can Special Summon 1 DARK monster with an ATK of 1500 or less in face-up Attack Position from your Deck. Then shuffle your Deck.

Mother Grizzly
Effect Monster (Beast-Warrior / WATER / 4 Stars / ATK 1400 / DEF 1000)

When this card is sent to the Graveyard as a result of battle, you can Special Summon 1 WATER monster with an ATK of 1500 or less in face-up Attack Position from your Deck. Then shuffle your Deck.


Thunder Dragon
Effect Monster (Thunder / LIGHT / 5 Stars / ATK 1600 / DEF 1500)

Discard this card from your hand to the Graveyard to add up to 2 "Thunder Dragon" cards from your Deck to your hand. Then shuffle your Deck. You can only use this effect during your Main Phase.


How is this NOT a standard statement as a Game Mechanic, and not as part of the effect???
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
masterwoo0 said:
The difference with Penguin Soldier is, If you say, "Im going to send back 2", then you send back 2.

You only trigger a flip effect that is optional. You activate it by stating that you are sending cards, that's why it can be Divine Wrathed.

If you just flip it face-up, can you Divine Wrath it? If you say you dont want to send cards, can you Divine Wrath it?
Click to expand...

That is only because you know in fact how many monsters there are on the field to send back. That is not the case with Thunder Dragon, but the case with both is that you can actually decide if you really wish to activate or not activate their "up to" effect.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Okay, I'm flexible... I still say "zero" doesnt add cards to your hand, so declaring that you wish to add zero shouldnt activate the effect, but, I can live with it... if that's how it gets ruled.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Isn't the "Shuffle your Deck afterwards" being printed on cards now (including reprints)? That is, it's becoming a part of the effects instead of some Game Mechanic?
Click to expand...

not necessarily.

I believe we've also ignored the declaration argument here. If I discard a Thunder Dragon, if I'm supposed to declare how many Thunder Dragons I want from my Deck and I declare 2, what happens if there is only 1 in my Deck? Do I take it, even though I declared I would be taking 2? "Up to" probably means that, yes.
Click to expand...

effects that affect the hand/deck never do anything at activation, you choose whether you're getting one or two 'Thunder Dragon' when the effect is resolving and you're already searching the deck.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
No.

Trigger effects are triggered when they are triggered. Sounds obvious doesn't it?

When you tribute summon Mobius successfully its effect is triggered. Its summoned, nothing else has happened, so it can't concern itself with missing the timing because it is still the last thing to happen.

BUt an effect can't activate mid-chain so it has to wait, jsut like any Mandatory trigger effect.

And if something else resolves before Mobius can activate, then it misses the timing to "activate."

It was still triggered.

After all how could you miss its timing if their wasn't any thing triggered to miss?
Click to expand...
My point, which you so conveniently try to skirt, is that Optional Triggers are not defined by YOUR choice to activate, they are defined by the activation timing in general... that being direct response.

Every event in YGO can potentially create a window of opportunity, but when they occur mid-chain for instance, that window is missed.

Mandatory Triggers do not require the window to be directly in front of them, direct response is not needed. They will simply delay activation until the next available one.

However, that in no way shape or form suggests that Mandatory Triggers have to activate (if possible), if the effect presents you with a choice, you should absolutely be able to not activate... as in the case with Penguin Soldier.

The only difference between Mobius and Penguin Soldier, is that one requires direct response, while the other doesn't. Optional Tigger means "optional timing" not "your choice".

You wanna argue semantics i can do it all day.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Well lets look at it this way, things that occur at activation (like the examples i used) are generally determining the "mode" or in a sense filling in the blanks of what the actual effect is going to do, or whats invovled (it happens at during the same spot as targeting).

With Thunder Dragon there is no fill-in-the-blank, the mode of the effect is determined... you are searching for "Thunder Dragon's", the amount is determined by you when you resolve.

We are in agreement for sure, as to choosing at resolution.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Maybe I'm coming from an old schol of Yu-Gi players, but the issue for me never had anything to do with shuffling your deck. See, we always assumed that if you activated the effect, you searched your deck no matter what. Whether you had 0 or 10 Thunder Dragons in your deck wasn't the consideration. But whther you FOUND any Thunder Dragons was.

Maybe we treated Thunder Dragon too much like a searcher, but this is the way I always belived that it functioned. It wasn't a matter of declaring the number of monsters or whther you had monsters or whatnot. It was always a matter of searching through your deck, seeing what you had, and then deciding how many you were going to go get. I guess what I'm saying is, I never saw it as something you had to declare upon activation. I always saw it as something you decided on upon resolution. So shuffling your deck was going to HAVE to happen, because everytime you activated the effect, you were going to have to go search.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Is there a "real" reason why that could not be possible?

If a searcher is sent to the grave and you begin to search your deck, is it obligatory to take out a monster if you touch your deck and there is an existance of a monster that can be searched?
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
The problem with all of the comparison examples being given here is that you are trying to compare Triggers with an Ignition.

You can't do that, because the Ignition is manually activated by you with the intention to search. You are making a choice by activating, without being forced by any timing.

Triggers, like say Mystic Tomato, are forcing you to choose whether you want to search or not, AND if you do decide to search... then YES you are obligated to Special Summon if you find a monster this is applicable at that point.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Im still esceptical about it, i've never know of it being obligation "except" when the effect is mandatory, I could very well try and search something, and then just say "you know what, I better not" and just shuffle your deck.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
To the best of my understanding, once you make the choice to go into your Deck and search out a valid monster, you have made the choice to summon.

At that point, the only thing that would pervent you from doing so, would be a fail to find.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
We have yet to have that made a rule, I mean I see this really going either way, I don't think that this has ever been debated before <I wonder why>, but again I say I could see it going either way really.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
novastar said:
To the best of my understanding, once you make the choice to go into your Deck and search out a valid monster, you have made the choice to summon.

At that point, the only thing that would pervent you from doing so, would be a fail to find.
Click to expand...

I would be very interested in seeing that actually Officially answered. I can think of many occassions where my opponent has thought they had a monster they were wanting to summon, went looking through their deck for it and not finding it chose not to summon (if there were a mandatory rule about summoning once you have begun to search I can easily see people getting the wrong monster out when they don't want it).

I had always assumed that the effect was optional up until a monster was selected and summoned, you would think if that were not the case then once the opponent started searching the deck and then did not choose a monster to summon they would have to show the deck to the opponent to prove a valid monster was not available.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
(if there were a mandatory rule about summoning once you have begun to search I can easily see people getting the wrong monster out when they don't want it).
Click to expand...
Yes, but at the same time, i could see this as an abuse of being allowed to now get a free look at your Deck, and shuffle and manipulate it by shuffling it (because you have to shuffle it once you look). I personally don't see that as reasonable either.

I still believe that once you choose to physically start looking through the Deck, you should summon, no matter what you end up having to pick.

An official answer would be nice.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
A glance at your Graveyard, Removed from Play, and your Hand, should give you an idea what monsters you have left in your Deck. I mean, come on... who built the Deck?

If you know you play with 3 Spirit Reapers, and you have 1 in hand and none anywhere else, that means you should know that there are 2 more in your Deck when you begin searching after your Sangan is destroyed.

If you see Exiled Force in the Graveyard, no sense searching for him from Giant Rats effect.

Unless you "just" made your Deck overnight (in which case, you deserve to get beat), I cant see someone searching their Deck and not having some kind of idea what they are looking for.

Of course, knowing that you will find nothing, just so you can shuffle your Deck is a strategy as well, but since there will be nothing to remove, its not as hard to tell your opponent you have nothing.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top