Win and Lose
- Thread starter Fury
- Start date
That's not possible. Can you give a specific example of what you are thinking of?
BTW...if you go here http://www.upperdeckentertainment.com/yugioh/en/gameplay/faqs/advancedgameplay/default.aspx there is a section on Winning in a Chain that may be useful to your question.
Thanks.
BTW...if you go here http://www.upperdeckentertainment.com/yugioh/en/gameplay/faqs/advancedgameplay/default.aspx there is a section on Winning in a Chain that may be useful to your question.
Thanks.
Well, I dont have a specific situation in mind, but I can make one up if it helps.
e.g. Draw 1 card. If it's a monster you take 1000 damage.
If you get the last piece of Exodia with this and you are low on life then you win because of Exodia but lose because your LP is 0.
This is 1 effect so there is no chaining here.
e.g. Draw 1 card. If it's a monster you take 1000 damage.
If you get the last piece of Exodia with this and you are low on life then you win because of Exodia but lose because your LP is 0.
This is 1 effect so there is no chaining here.
Drawing all 5 Exodia pieces gives you the win condition which ends the game right then before anything else could happen. There is no way to win and lose at the same time. The only thing like that could possibly happen is both players drawing Exodia at the same time (Emissary of the Afterlife resolution for example) or Final Countdown ending on turn 20 at the same time (one person used Pyro Clock of Destiny). In those cases, it's a Draw and you both play another round.
ANd just for the record, even one effect resolving is still considered a chain. Exodia would grant a win condition before an effect like the one you came up with activated. If Exodia os drawn in the middle of a resolving effect, then you wait for the effect to resolve to declare the win.Fury said:
In which case, according to Fury's card, the Exodia player would also take lethal damage, thus making him lose as well. Or is it possible to win in the middle of a resolving chain link? I'd say not, because Graceful Charity won't allow a win in the middle of it.Digital Jedi said:
In this situation, Fury's card might as well say, "Draw 1 card and take [lethal] damage". Both those events are still a part of the same effect (as are Graceful Charity's drawing and discarding), and so both things would happen before any kind of win/lose condition can be looked at. When they are, both Exodia and zero Life Points come up.
I suppose the only answer to the question is, "don't ask". I'm sure no one's found anything like this, and it would be annoying if they did. Then again, I'm sure Konami aren't too fussy about making sure no kind of combo can result in a Schrodinger Finish, so it could happen in the future. Just keep your eyes open.
Odds are, though, a Schrodinger Finish would be ruled as a Draw instead. It's the easy way out.
At the resolution of a chain link, if your Life Points are 0, you would most likely loose before a win condition like Exodia could be declared.
No offense to anyone but it seems like only Maruno read my 2nd post carefully enough. The mentioned effect was indeed 1 effect. So the burn happens at resolution, there is no activations here.
I found something in rulebook v5:
"You win a Duel if you reduce your opponent's Life Points to 0."
So in the Exodia&LP=0 example:
Exodia -> I win
LP=0 -> Opponent wins
If we both win at the same time it's a draw.
I guess other form of win&lose would also be ruled as a draw.
Kind of interesting.
I found something in rulebook v5:
"You win a Duel if you reduce your opponent's Life Points to 0."
So in the Exodia&LP=0 example:
Exodia -> I win
LP=0 -> Opponent wins
If we both win at the same time it's a draw.
I guess other form of win&lose would also be ruled as a draw.
Kind of interesting.
Fury said:
Oh I read your post and pointed out the only two "Simultaneous Win/Loss" possibilities aside from an effect that reduces both your life points to 0 at the same time. Part of the argument is based a little on hypothetical since there isn't anything that has that kind of effect right now. However let's assume for a moment there is. The exact ruling is totally dependant upon how such a card is written.
1) Say there's a continuous trap card that is similar in timing to Curse of Darkness or Chain Blast in that it states "Whenever you draw a card, you take 1000 Damage". It's my Draw Phase. I have 500 Life Points left. I draw the 5th Piece of Exodia. At this point I win the duel before the other effect can activate. (This was the exact example I gave above). The reason being is that I'm not in the middle of resolving an effect. The damage effect wouldn't even get the chance to activate in this scenario.
2) Say I have a spell card that says "Draw 2 cards. Take 1000 Damage for each Spell or Trap Card Drawn." I have 500 Life Points left. I draw the 5th Piece of Exodia along with 1 Spell Card. At this point I'm still resolving the effect of this card so I take the damage first and lose.
In neither instance (again based on the examples you were looking at) do you have a win/lose scenario. Something will resolve first.
This is true, because the damage-inflicting event is triggered AFTER the card is drawn, and the Exodia win effect also activates right then too. The Exodia win effect takes priority over the damage, so you win.densetsu_x said:
Not so right, methinks. Yes, your Life Points become zero during the resolution of that effect, but you also have your Exodia collection in it too. You can't win in the middle of resolving an effect, as Graceful Charity shows. As soon as you finish resolving the effect, you have both a win (Exodia) and a lose (0 Life Points) situation. This would most likely just be declared a draw.densetsu_x said:
Well, mine was 1 effect on 1 card. So your 1) example is irrelevant because it involves 2 effects.densetsu_x said:
Nope. That's 1 effect on 1 card. You cant lose during the resolution of 1 effect. Only after.densetsu_x said:
Continuous effects now have a priority list, cool.Maruno said:
ldcool
If your Life Points become 0 before the game can check to see if have Exodia in your hand, then you cannot win the game, because you lost it at the moment you went to 0. The two do not happen simultaneously. One happens first and then the other. If the first causes a loss, then Exodia in your hand means nothing. It can't interrupt a resolving effect. And if that effect causes you to loose the game, then you've lost it. There is no simultaneous win/loose in this hypothetical scenario.Maruno said:
Fury said:Well, mine was 1 effect on 1 card. So your 1) example is irrelevant because it involves 2 effects.
Nope. That's 1 effect on 1 card. You cant lose during the resolution of 1 effect. Only after.
Continuous effect now have a priority list, cool.
Both of densetsu's examples were valid because you didn't specify what kind of effect we were dealing with.
I'm not sure where you read two effects in his first example, because he only used one. It's your hypothetical effect in the form of a trigger. Because it's a trigger, when you draw a card at your draw phase or for whatever reason, the effect will not get a chance to activate if you've pulled Exodia during a draw, because the draw happened first.
His second example puts your hypothetical effect into the form of an Ignition-like activation. In other words, its a manually activated effect. He's not saying you loose in the middle of resolution, he's saying you loose at resolution, when the effect completely finishes. The continuous nature of Exodia will not interrupt nor coincide with the Life Point Damage. That damage will take place first, then if you've been reduced to 0 you've lost, regardless of what cards you have in your hand.
So now there's some kind of pecking order for endgame conditions?
In my mind, as soon as there's a gap in play (between chain links, etc.) all endgame scenarios are checked simultaneously. In the "draw a card, take lethal damage" example, immediately after that effect has finished resolving, Life Points and Exodia would be checked for at exactly the same time (amongst other things). Both would be found, and confusion would be had, probably resulting in ruling this a Draw.
But you say Life Points are checked before Exodia or Destiny Board, etc.? I don't accept that.
In my mind, as soon as there's a gap in play (between chain links, etc.) all endgame scenarios are checked simultaneously. In the "draw a card, take lethal damage" example, immediately after that effect has finished resolving, Life Points and Exodia would be checked for at exactly the same time (amongst other things). Both would be found, and confusion would be had, probably resulting in ruling this a Draw.
But you say Life Points are checked before Exodia or Destiny Board, etc.? I don't accept that.
The issue with the LP/Exodia example is this..
The LP effect is a trigger effect that must activate and resolve (based off what I've read and understood so far).
The "Exodia" win is a Game Condition. It's more like a Continuous effect (I said it's LIKE a continuous effect, not it IS one). As soon as the last piece of "Exodia" hits the hand from the draw, you win...that's it...end of game. There is nothing else to check for or do.
The only time this doesn't work is when you get all 5 pieces of "Exodia" in the middle of a single card effect resolution. Notice I said MIDDLE of a SINGLE CARD EFFECT RESOLUTION, not the middle of a chain, not before a card effect activates, not after, but in the middle like with "Graceful Charity" or "Good Goblin Housekeeping". In this case, you must complete the effect resolution before checking for win conditions. If you no longer have all 5 pieces of "Exodia" in hand, then you don't win.
The LP effect is a trigger effect that must activate and resolve (based off what I've read and understood so far).
The "Exodia" win is a Game Condition. It's more like a Continuous effect (I said it's LIKE a continuous effect, not it IS one). As soon as the last piece of "Exodia" hits the hand from the draw, you win...that's it...end of game. There is nothing else to check for or do.
The only time this doesn't work is when you get all 5 pieces of "Exodia" in the middle of a single card effect resolution. Notice I said MIDDLE of a SINGLE CARD EFFECT RESOLUTION, not the middle of a chain, not before a card effect activates, not after, but in the middle like with "Graceful Charity" or "Good Goblin Housekeeping". In this case, you must complete the effect resolution before checking for win conditions. If you no longer have all 5 pieces of "Exodia" in hand, then you don't win.
There is a gap between chain links. It's the same gap where Continuous Effects become active/inactive when brought into/out of play by a resolving effect. Exodia is more akin to a Continuous Effect in that that it wouldn't be check for, until the effect resolves. The rulings show this by saying that you can't declare a win if you draw into Exodia with Graceful Charity until Graceful resolves. If you have to discard before that, and if you don't have the pieces anymore, you don't win. The game doesnt check for the win until the effect resolves. If you've been put to 0 Life Points when the effects resolves, how can you declare a win?Maruno said:
Sorry, after I gave an example I thought we are talking about that. My example was 1 effect, while densetsu_x' was 2:Digital Jedi said:
Curse of Darkness/Chain Blast and Exodia.
Trigger? Where? My hypothetical card said:Digital Jedi said:
"Draw 1 card. If it's a monster you take [lethal] damage."
Well his effect seems totally like mine. A normal spell that lets you draw then lose all LP.Digital Jedi said:
What is this at resolution you speak of? Part of the resolution or after it is completed?Digital Jedi said:
Or after the resolution but before it is completed? (Does this makes any sense???)
Exactly my point. Exodia is a win condition exactly the same way as losing all LP. Even if you threat it as a continuous effect I see no difference.skey23 said:
So win conditions have a priority list, too? Cool.Digital Jedi said:
ldwink------------------------------------------------------------
OFF: Now that I checked the FAQ I'm confused about the ruling on Curse of Darkness.
FAQ said:
So this is a continuous effect. But when is the damage applied: First I though at resolution because only at that point you will know if it's activation wasnt negated. But it says right after it activates, but also that it doesnt happed if it's negated. Seems contradictionary to me.
If you can't win the game with Exodia during a single chain link (you have to wait until a gap between the links), how can you lose due to 0 Life Points in the middle of that chain link?
It was my understanding that any endgame scenario (both Exodia, 0 Life Points, and others) were checked continuously outside of each individual chain link. That is, your Life Points are checked just as often as Exodia is checked for.
You're saying at the end of a chain link, if your Life Points are zero, you lose. But when you're able to check this, you're also able to check for Exodia, meaning you'd win from that. Both winning and losing would constitute a Schrodinger Finish.
It was my understanding that any endgame scenario (both Exodia, 0 Life Points, and others) were checked continuously outside of each individual chain link. That is, your Life Points are checked just as often as Exodia is checked for.
You're saying at the end of a chain link, if your Life Points are zero, you lose. But when you're able to check this, you're also able to check for Exodia, meaning you'd win from that. Both winning and losing would constitute a Schrodinger Finish.