Desert Sunlight and Creature Swap

BobDoily

BobDoily

New Member
Okay here's the situation.

I activate Creature Swap to give my opponent say a Sheep Token.
They have one face-down monster, say Mask of Darkness or Magician of Faith.
They Chain with Desert Sunlight.

So his monster goes to face-up defense position. Then the switch occurs so at the end of the chain I have his monster in face-up defense position on my side of the field.

Now here's the question. Who has the right to the flip-effect. It was triggered on my opponent's side of the field but the monster at the end of the chain before the new chain starts with the flip-effect is on my side of the field. I forget is this case controller at the time of it being flipped or at the time of chain resolution?
 
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Digital Jedi said:
The flip may cretae a new chain block, in this scenario, but the basic mechanics would still aply. Magician of Faith's efect is already considered active, it's just awaiting resolution of the current chain to begin her's.

If we were to assume that the controller of Creature Swap's side of the field is where an effect would resolve like this, then the flip effect would apply to niether player. Player A did not flip Magician of Faith. Magician of Faith dod not activate on his side of the field. The real question is whether Player B gets the effect or not, but there is no way, using either explanation, that player A could get to use the effect.
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Nowhere on any [Flip] effect that I've ever read does it state that it had to flip on a specific side of the field. The fact that the flip occurred is all that is required. But you can't say the effect activates until it gets put into a chain block, and that doesn't happen until the current chain resolves...on player A's side of the field.

I think the question here is really, when is a flip effect considered "acivated"? When it is flipped physically, or when the effect enters the chain?
 
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a ha, i know how this works in a way.


what if when it got flipped it got managed to get destroyed?

put in this sitaution.

i have 4 facedowns.

1 Magician of Faith
1 Cyber Jar
my opponents field doesnt matter because they will play Heavy Storm.

I chain 1 face down. (Jar of Greed) then chain,(opponent doesnt respond) i chain Desert Sunlight, (opponent doesnt respond) and i chain Acid Trap Hole to target my facedown Magician of Faith.

at resolution what happens.

Magician Flips. Okay we dont get the effect yet. block 1 in chain 2

but now Cyber Jar will flip which will do its effect once the chain resolve. being block 2 in chain 2.

now Jar of Greed resolve, and i draw a card.

and Heavy Storm finally resolves.

okay, now lets work with chain 2.

oo that right Cyber Jar goes first. because it was the last block in the chain.

now we no longer have Magician of Faith on the field, but initially were was it flipped and who flipped it? I did, do i get the effect of it?

according to the whole, it has to be were it has to be, it would mean that i wouldnt get the effect because she is no longer on my side of the field, in fact its in my graveyard, which according to it being put were it has to be, would completly say i cant get the effect. because my graveyard and my field are 2 completly different locations.

but we all know, that i do get the effect of Magician of Faith.

in this situation it works the same. only becasue it moved over it doesnt say that your opponent will now get the effect.

flip effect only care for were and when they got flip not were they will end up.
 
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krazykidpsx said:
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Totally disagree with your example. The situation is completely different than when you're dealing with a change in control.

MoF activated (and was added to a chain block) while under your control. Whether it's on the field or grave does not matter since she doesn't need to be on the field to get her effect. You never lost control of MoF when the effect activated. This is not the same thing.
 
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It would appear we've come to an impass, I'll post this to the judge's board....though so all can use the information.....though I sometimes feel silly doing so for questions that I'm quite certain of....then again, we were certain about End of Anubis and Exiled Force weren' we? <laffin>
 
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a change of control is a change of a control of a monster not its effect.

and yes somebodoy please post this on the judgelist.

i dont want to be wrong and jdos doesnt want to be wrong.

so lets try and be right. :)
 
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krazykidpsx said:
a change of control is a change of a control of a monster not its effect.

and yes somebodoy please post this on the judgelist.

i dont want to be wrong and jdos doesnt want to be wrong.

so lets try and be right. :)
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Agreed, but like I said, the question is "when is the effect actually considered activated"? When the flip physically occurs (on player B's side of the field) or when it is added to the chain block (after it gets to player A's side of the field). At this point, I guess I don't know. I'll look forward to the answer from the list...well, after EF vs. EoA, I don't know that I'll ever look forward to a ruling from the list...but I'll certainly live with it. :D
 
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It's activated at the same time a trap card is, when it's flipped face up. If it's flipped up in the middle of a chain it begins a new chain after the current chain resolves.

I learned this one with a twisted game against another judge from Florida. He was playing his deck destruction deck, I was playing my Exodia / Relinquished deck.

I have an attack position Witch of the Black Forest and a face down defense position MOF.

He has two face down S/T cards and two face down Needle Worms (I know this because they came to his field via Cyber Jar)

I draw Dark Hole....obviously a good card to activate at this time knowing what he's playing and what I have on the field.

I activate Dark Hole, he chains with Acid Trap Hole targeting his first Needle Worm, then chains a second Acid Trap Hole on his other Needle Worm. :eek:

Resolve the chain(s)
 
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So activation occurs at the moment of the flip?

If that's the case then the controller of Creature Swap definitley doesn't get the effect. Because the effect would be "lingering" around the owners side of the field until the new chain could resolve. Player A is getting a face-up Magician of Faith. How in the heck can he use it's flip effect when it arrives on his side of the field face-up and already activated? (Can I say heck? How about Dag-na-mit?)
 
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John Danker said:
It's activated at the same time a trap card is, when it's flipped face up. If it's flipped up in the middle of a chain it begins a new chain after the current chain resolves.
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If that's the case, then I'll happily reverse myself. For me, that is the meat of the issue. I've never really seen anything "official" on it.
 
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Unfortunately with the Exiled ruling the lines seem to be grey'd.

It seems me and John might be in for a shock. The player who controls MoF at the time when the effect is placed on the Chain Block might end up being the controller.

Wow, very wierd.
 
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novastar said:
Unfortunately with the Exiled ruling the lines seem to be grey'd.

It seems me and John might be in for a shock. The player who controls MoF at the time when the effect is placed on the Chain Block might end up being the controller.

Wow, very wierd.
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That's the point I was trying to get across. Wow, that Exiled Force ruling is rippling all over the place now.
 
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On this, unless there's just something that totally blows us all away on the Judge List, I really cant see how Magician of Faith can flip face-up, regardless of it being involved in a change of control (that doesnt take place until the card effect itself actually resolves), and the effect NOT stay on the side of the owner/controller who flipped it. The effect activates at the time of flip, but because there is already an ongoing chain, it cannot resolve until Creature Swap resolves.

At that time, only the monster has changed control. The effect was activated by the original controller, not the new owner, and should have been placed in a new chain link.

I wouldnt be suprised if they come back to say that because the new controller did not actually "flip" MoF, he is not considered to be the recipient of the effect since the "activation" is the point of concern and not the resolution.
 
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Once again, the effect Triggers when it is flipped. The effect is added to the chain at the first available instance, which in this case would be after the current chain resolves.

Logic would tell you that whoever controlled MoF when the effect Triggered (was flipped) would be the controller of the effect.

It seems however, that there is a good chance, it will not be ruled that way.
 
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I vote that initial control to whereas Magician of Faith was flipped face-up, will be the on who benefits from the effect, regardless when the effect actually activates on the opponent's side of the field.

If you were tribute your opponent's Exiled Force that you controlled, you would still control the effect.

I do realize that the difference here is that Exiled Force was placed onto a chain in the situation I just described, and Magician of Faith hasn't been placed into a chain yet, but it I think it was initially the on who flips it face-up will benefit.
 
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If you were tribute your opponent's Exiled Force that you controlled, you would still control the effect.
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Wow! you just gave me a light of hope.

That is an excellent point. If Exiled activates in the graveyard as UDE suggests then the player whos graveyard it enters would control the effect, not the player who tributed it, since it would be activating inside a graveyard controlled by the opponent.

Its' a hole in the ruling.
 
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