Desert Sunlight and Creature Swap

[BobDoily]

Okay here's the situation.

I activate Creature Swap to give my opponent say a Sheep Token.
They have one face-down monster, say Mask of Darkness or Magician of Faith.
They Chain with Desert Sunlight.

So his monster goes to face-up defense position. Then the switch occurs so at the end of the chain I have his monster in face-up defense position on my side of the field.

Now here's the question. Who has the right to the flip-effect. It was triggered on my opponent's side of the field but the monster at the end of the chain before the new chain starts with the flip-effect is on my side of the field. I forget is this case controller at the time of it being flipped or at the time of chain resolution?

 

[krazykidpsx]

ah not neceserally true.

if the card speculates that its effect must activate in the graveyard. ei: Giant Germ then it will belong to whom ever graveyard it goes to.

If i switch control of Apprentice Magician to my opponent doesnt they get the effect sine all that needs to happen is get destroyed as a result of battle.

the card doesnt state, when this card goes to your graveyard, you get the effect.

it states when this card is destroyed YOU get its effect.

same with Exiled.

when you offer it for its effect YOU get its effect.

Now were it lands is a completly different situation. which makes MoF go by were it was activated not were it will go.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

ah not neceserally true.

if the card speculates that its effect must activate in the graveyard. ei: Giant Germ then it will belong to whom ever graveyard it goes to.

If i switch control of Apprentice Magician to my opponent doesnt they get the effect sine all that needs to happen is get destroyed as a result of battle.

the card doesnt state, when this card goes to your graveyard, you get the effect.

it states when this card is destroyed YOU get its effect.

same with Exiled.

when you offer it for its effect YOU get its effect.

Now were it lands is a completly different situation. which makes MoF go by were it was activated not were it will go.

Of course, the effect of Giant Germ are actual graveyard effects. Exiled Force just happens to be "activated" while "in" the graveyard.

I just noticed something..... scary..... whatever happened to Raigekick?!?

We need the poll master! LoL

 

[novastar]

ah not neceserally true.

if the card speculates that its effect must activate in the graveyard. ei: Giant Germ then it will belong to whom ever graveyard it goes to.

If i switch control of Apprentice Magician to my opponent doesnt they get the effect sine all that needs to happen is get destroyed as a result of battle.

the card doesnt state, when this card goes to your graveyard, you get the effect.

it states when this card is destroyed YOU get its effect.

same with Exiled.

when you offer it for its effect YOU get its effect.

Now were it lands is a completly different situation. which makes MoF go by were it was activated not were it will go.

Its absolutley true...if an effect activates in a zone you control from an object you control ...you are deamed the controller of the effect.

The witch/Sangan "ownership" logic is a misconception, it is because at the time the effect Triggers you control the card in a zone you control. Do not pass go, do not collect 200.

The Exiled vs. EoA throws a big monkey wrech into it.

the card doesnt state, when this card goes to your graveyard, you get the effect.

That is EXACTLY the arguement as to why the Exiled vs. EoA ruling is incorrect.

 

[krazykidpsx]

no because by game mechanics, where it goes is were the effect is activating from.

if it goes RFP then its a RFP effect.

If it goes to the graveyard its a Graveyard effect

BUT there are cards that state that they must be in the graveyard and go to your graveyard. which we all know what when a monster that isnt your gets destroyed it goes to its original controllers graveyard.

the MOF is just were it was activated from is whom gets the effect not were it ends up at. which in this case is a field effect not a graveyard nor RFP effect.

Exiled Force true it doesnt activate in the graveyard, but it ends up in a graveyard. which is saying that the effect is comming from a graveyard. unlike Cannon Soldier, which says that when you tribute a monster the effect activates. the monster [Cannon Soldier] is currently on the field hence a field effect.

if that game mechanic were to get changed, then that would be the only way to make the Exiled Vs EoA correct in what we say its correct.

normaly its true, the monster doesnt have a bearing [where it goes thats were the effect is comming from] on its effect but according to this it very much doesnt.

 

[novastar]

The logic doesn't work.

You control your Graveyard Zone. Any effect that activates in your Graveyard is automatically by default under your control.

Going by this ruling, if someone steals and tributes your Exiled Force for its effect, you would be the controller of the effect because it activates in your Graveyard.

It doen't matter if its a Graveyard Trigger or not.

 

[novastar]

As far as Magician is concerned, i have a feeling they will say that it goes to the controller at the time it is placed on the chain.

I don't agree but considering some of the wierdness going on, it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[OKShadow]

Regarding MoF, I agree that it gets activated when flipped, then put on a new chain to take place when the current one resolves between Sunlight and Swap.

Wouldn't it be a better counter to that swap to have a face down Cyber Jar? LOL Then neither of the creatures involved in Swap would be on the field anymore to take advantage of it. LOL

 

[krazykidpsx]

no avatar your putting to much into something that is oviously basic.

If they tell you that the color red is called red you will say the color red is called red.

if they tell you that the color blue is green, though logically how the heck would blue be green.

well it doesnt matter what logic you put into it, the rule is, Blue is now called Green.

not that the color green is blue.

Thats what is happening in this situation. INstead of reading the rule, we put our selfs into a more indepth answer that we wont ever figure out because logically its abnormal.

but we shouldnt go by logic, we should go by rule.

 

[Digital Jedi]

no avatar your putting to much into something that is oviously basic.

If they tell you that the color red is called red you will say the color red is called red.

if they tell you that the color blue is green, though logically how the heck would blue be green.

well it doesnt matter what logic you put into it, the rule is, Blue is now called Green.

not that the color green is blue.

Thats what is happening in this situation. INstead of reading the rule, we put our selfs into a more indepth answer that we wont ever figure out because logically its abnormal.

but we shouldnt go by logic, we should go by rule.

Un fortunatly it's not that simple, for Judges especialy. A basic game mechainc has been turned on it's ear and that opens up a whole new can of worms for them and, really, for the average player in the way we thought the game unfolds. Saying Blue is now Green is one thing, but how do I explain to somebody what Blue-Green looks like?

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

The logic doesn't work.

You control your Graveyard Zone. Any effect that activates in your Graveyard is automatically by default under your control.

Going by this ruling, if someone steals and tributes your Exiled Force for its effect, you would be the controller of the effect because it activates in your Graveyard.

It doen't matter if its a Graveyard Trigger or not.

Actually novastar, if you tribute your opponent's Exiled Force, you will be the one who controls the effect, as you are the one who tributed it. It doesn't matter Exiled Force activated in your opponent's graveyard.

 

[novastar]

I know this...

I'm just saying it doesn't makes sense. If an effect activates from within a zone that you control, you would be the controller. Thats how these game work (TCG's).

Going with that and the ruling that Exiled is activated in the owners Graveyard, the owner should always be the controller, no matter who tributes it.

That is exactly why it is flawed, i'm just pointing it out.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

Ok, so we got that settled.

So does anyone have any clear cut ruling on this topic?

 

[krazykidpsx]

no the graveyard owner doesnt get the effect because the card doesnt require it to be in your graveyard, just that a certain action is taken.

its considered a what i will be calling "Location Effect" if the card doesnt specify a location the controller of the card gets the effect, if it does in the other hand, then the owner of said location gets the effect.

If Exiled Force gets tributed while there exists a Face up Banisher of light, the effect still pulls through, why is this? because intially Exiled Force doesnt ask for it to go to its original owners graveyard, it just asks to be tributed.

in this case. Exiled Force is the Color Blue, but were ever it goes it will be called Green.

yes oviously, it doesnt make any logical sence, but this is the rule. it is consider said effect when it goes to said location.

if it goes to RFP it will be a RFP effect.

if it goes to graveyard it will be a Graveyard effect.

Location has no barring what so ever on who gets the effect unless it specificially needs it to go to said location.

"when monster goes to your graveyard" oviously an opponent controlling your monster wouldnt go to their graveyard.

"when you tribute it" who ever tributes benefits the from the prize.

see where im going with this? probably not, no i am not being sarcastic or making fun of your intellegence, just pointing that you probably wont get it because its very odd and common sence isnt a factor here. but its how the mechanic of the game works.

The mechanic states, that if a card goes to said location then its called that type of effect the person making it go to said location benefits from the effect. If the card requires to go to said location then its that type of effect and you the owner of said location get the benefits of its prize.

maybe i made it a bit clearer or maybe i made a bit fuzzier. but hopefully you probably will understand. as well as others.

the MoF deal works the same way. Unless it specifically state that it has to be on a certain side of field which at this point it doesnt then the one that triggered the effect gets the benefits from it, regardless of were it may end up.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

I know that, whoever tributes Exiled Force will be the one controls the effect, regardless if it was originally your opponent's Exiled Force and ends up in your opponent's graveyard.

 

[krazykidpsx]

i know this and thats why im stating that its a "location effect"

on purposes of it vs. End of Anubis if it ends in the graveyard it gets its effect negated.

if it ends up somewhere else then it wont. etc.. etc...

 

[novastar]

no the graveyard owner doesnt get the effect because the card doesnt require it to be in your graveyard, just that a certain action is taken.

its considered a what i will be calling "Location Effect" if the card doesnt specify a location the controller of the card gets the effect, if it does in the other hand, then the owner of said location gets the effect.

If Exiled Force gets tributed while there exists a Face up Banisher of light, the effect still pulls through, why is this? because intially Exiled Force doesnt ask for it to go to its original owners graveyard, it just asks to be tributed.

in this case. Exiled Force is the Color Blue, but were ever it goes it will be called Green.

yes oviously, it doesnt make any logical sence, but this is the rule. it is consider said effect when it goes to said location.

if it goes to RFP it will be a RFP effect.

if it goes to graveyard it will be a Graveyard effect.

Location has no barring what so ever on who gets the effect unless it specificially needs it to go to said location.

"when monster goes to your graveyard" oviously an opponent controlling your monster wouldnt go to their graveyard.

"when you tribute it" who ever tributes benefits the from the prize.

see where im going with this? probably not, no i am not being sarcastic or making fun of your intellegence, just pointing that you probably wont get it because its very odd and common sence isnt a factor here. but its how the mechanic of the game works.

The mechanic states, that if a card goes to said location then its called that type of effect the person making it go to said location benefits from the effect. If the card requires to go to said location then its that type of effect and you the owner of said location get the benefits of its prize.

maybe i made it a bit clearer or maybe i made a bit fuzzier. but hopefully you probably will understand. as well as others.

the MoF deal works the same way. Unless it specifically state that it has to be on a certain side of field which at this point it doesnt then the one that triggered the effect gets the benefits from it, regardless of were it may end up.

I'm sorry but this is so wrong on so many levels. TCG's do not work this way, effects belong to the controller of the Zone they generate from. Every TCG works this way.

I'm going to get off this, as it is off the topic at hand. I appreciate your efforts though.

i'll just wait for the MoF ruling to come in.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

This is an official ruling on Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6

The "you" in "on your side of the field" is the current controller's field, so as long as "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV 6" is face-up, it is always "face-up on your side of the field".

If you control your opponent's Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6 on your side of the field and also meet the condition on destroying 1 monster as a result of battle, you may send this card to the graveyard and Special Summon Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8 from your deck, even though you've sent your opponent's Horus The Black Dragon Lv6 to the his/her graveyard.

So if you control and tribute your opponent's Exiled Force, you will control the effect.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

To ensure this, I finally found an official ruling from the Jude's List, similar to who would control Exiled Force's effect:

http://www.igforums.com//threads/7284&highlight=skilled+dark+magician

 

[novastar]

Strike i know that you are "supposed" to control the effect of Exiled, i'm not saying you shouldn't.

I'm saying that the ruling (EoA vs. Exiled) breaks normal rules of controlling effects.

Just leave it at "you control the effect" this is making my head hurt.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

Strike i know that you are "supposed" to control the effect of Exiled, i'm not saying you shouldn't.

I'm saying that the ruling (EoA vs. Exiled) breaks normal rules of controlling effects.

Just leave it at "you control the effect" this is making my head hurt.

It wasn't towards you, just letting you know.

But to be on topic, krazykidpsx does have a point.

You tribute Exiled Force, in order to activate the effect. Wherever it ends up is where it will be "activated" so if it were end up in the graveyard, it's within The End of Anubis's grasp.

If Banisher of the Light were face-up, and Exiled Force is tributed in order to activate it's effect, it will end up removed from play, where The End of Anubis can't touch and Exiled Force will resolve and destroy 1 monster.

I don't think The End of Anubis will alter who controls the effects either.