DMOC vs Solumn vs Force Back

SS64

SS64

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DMOC:
When this card is Normal Summoned or Special Summoned, you can add 1 Spell Card from your Graveyard to your hand. A monster that is destroyed by this monster as a result of battle is removed from play instead of going to the Graveyard. If this face-up card is destroyed or removed from the field, it is removed from play.

[Re: Forced Back] If you negate the Normal or Flip Summon of "Dark Magician of Chaos" with "Forced Back", it is returned to the hand and is not removed from play.

So if i negate the summoning w/Solumn ,it wont be removed from play?
 
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I believe that's different, since you're also "destroying" Dark Magician of Chaos with Solemn Judgment. It's not going back to your hand, it's headed for the Graveyard ... but his effect says differently if he's "Destroyed".
 
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djp952 said:
I believe that's different, since you're also "destroying" Dark Magician of Chaos with Solemn Judgment. It's not going back to your hand, it's headed for the Graveyard ... but his effect says differently if he's "Destroyed".
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now, Force back is the same way except its returned to player hand.it is still removed from the field.

If this face-up card is destroyed or removed from the field, it is removed from play.

if you play complusary evacution device, DMOC is removed
 
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Forced Back prevents the monster from hitting the field, much like Solemn Judgment does when you choose to negate the summon. However, SJ sends the card to the Graveyard. DMoC circumvents that by being removed from play instead of going to the Graveyard. Forced Back doesn't destroy the monster - it sends it back to the hand.
 
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Since when does Dark Magician of Chaos get removed if the summon is negated and is destroyed by Solemn Judgment?

In both cases (SJ and FB) DMoC will NOT be removed, it is a Continuous Effect that only applies to DMoC when is is successfully brought to the field and face-up.
 
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Backing up novastar here:

When this card is Normal Summoned or Special Summoned, you can add 1 Spell Card from your Graveyard to your hand. A monster that is destroyed by this monster as a result of battle is removed from play instead of going to the Graveyard. If this face-up card is destroyed or removed from the field, it is removed from play.
 
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First, I was going to agree with everything said, but I wanted to look at the Judge's list first. I remember they did some "pending errata" to Dark Magician of Chaos. But now I can't find the message!

Does anyone else remember the message I'm talking about? The one that basicaly said "rule as if the card said this"?
 
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Nope... but there is a remote difference. Cards like Trap Hole destroy the monster afterwards it is summoned, one of the reasons why Mobius' effect still activates when being hit by BTH.
But cards like Solemn Judgment NEGATE the summoning, thereby creating the situation like the monster actually never existed on the field, and when a monster hasn't been on the field, it cannot be destroyed :D
(Just like Forced Back does, it isn't considered to have been on the field, that is why it hasn't been 'removed')
 
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(I'm still not saying that he'll be removed. Just pointing out a small error.)

BenjaminMS said:
Nope... but there is a remote difference. Cards like Trap Hole destroy the monster afterwards it is summoned, one of the reasons why Mobius' effect still activates when being hit by BTH.
But cards like Solemn Judgment NEGATE the summoning, thereby creating the situation like the monster actually never existed on the field, and when a monster hasn't been on the field, it cannot be destroyed :D
(Just like Forced Back does, it isn't considered to have been on the field, that is why it hasn't been 'removed')
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Deck Devastation Virus. Chain Destruction.
 
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BenjaminMS said:
OK. But I meant in general. I forgot about those cards :/
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Are you trying to say that solemn judgment doesnt destroy the card that was attempting to be summoned? I mean, that is how it gets to the Graveyard, otherwise, it would just say, "Discard or Send the Summoned Monster".
 
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Entropy said:
First, I was going to agree with everything said, but I wanted to look at the Judge's list first. I remember they did some "pending errata" to Dark Magician of Chaos. But now I can't find the message!

Does anyone else remember the message I'm talking about? The one that basicaly said "rule as if the card said this"?
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The errata was:
Dark Magician of Chaos

When this card is Normal Summoned or Special Summoned, you can SELECT AND add 1 Spell Card from your Graveyard to your hand. A monster that is destroyed by this monster as a result of battle is removed from play instead of going to the Graveyard. If this face-up card is REMOVED FROM THE FIELD, it is removed from play. (removed "destroyed or")

It probably makes it more clear that it has to be on the field for it to be removed from play.
 
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darkjason said:
The errata was:
Dark Magician of Chaos

When this card is Normal Summoned or Special Summoned, you can SELECT AND add 1 Spell Card from your Graveyard to your hand. A monster that is destroyed by this monster as a result of battle is removed from play instead of going to the Graveyard. If this face-up card is REMOVED FROM THE FIELD, it is removed from play. (removed "destroyed or")

It probably makes it more clear that it has to be on the field for it to be removed from play.
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So the effect of Compulsory Evacuation Device or say Penguin Knight that returns the card from the field to your hand actually sends DMoC to being removed from play? Or does it just go back to your hand?
 
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skey23 said:
It does not matter how "Dark Magician of Chaos" is removed from the field, his effect will send him to the RFP pile instead.
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Wasn't the change they sent out to the Judge List contrary to what you just said?

If his Normal Summon is negated by, say, "Forced Back", he is not considered to have been summoned to the field, and would just return to hand. So, in essence, he never "left" the field (which provides fuel to the debate we had about where a monster actually exist when the summon is negated).
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Wasn't the change they sent out to the Judge List contrary to what you just said?

If his Normal Summon is negated by, say, "Forced Back", he is not considered to have been summoned to the field, and would just return to hand. So, in essence, he never "left" the field (which provides fuel to the debate we had about where a monster actually exist when the summon is negated).
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Ok, let me re-read what you said. Ok, I'm NOT going crazy...lol.

If the Normal Summon is negated by, say, "Forced Back", he is NOT considered to have been summoned to the field, and would just return to the hand. He never "left" the field because he was never "on" the field....lol.
 
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I just checked the rulings for Forced Back...it states this...

If you negate the Normal or Flip Summon of "Dark Magician of Chaos" with "Forced Back", it is returned to the hand and is not removed from play.
 
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So the effect of Compulsory Evacuation Device or say Penguin Knight that returns the card from the field to your hand actually sends DMoC to being removed from play? Or does it just go back to your hand?
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Is it that hard to understand?

Okay. DMoC must be "on the field" face-up, and PROPERLY on the field and THEN removed from the field WHILE face-up in order to be RFP.

Eva Device makes DMoC goes to RFP instead of hand since DMoC is already properly ON THE FIELD. If Eva Device was activated and target a face-up DMoC, and I chain Book of Moon to flip DMoC face-down, THEN it is returned to my hand since it was bounced while face-down. (Eva Device can target face-down so the effect will still go through)

Force-back "negates" the summon so DMoC was never was on the field. So it'll bounced to my hand. Solemn Judgment is different cause it "negates" the summon, (So DMoC never hit the field) but at the same time it also destroyed it. Anything destroyed doesn't go to your hand but to the graveyard. So with you use Solemn Judgment is used on DMoC, it's goes to the graveyard because by Solemn Judgment effect. There's no DMoC effect in this equasion. DMoC bombed by Solemn Judgment will hit the graveyard instead of RFP. (unless Macro Cosmos is on the field)
 
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