Dragon's Mirror / Disappear

J

John Danker

Administrator
I'm trying to get a handle on when Disappear makes certain cards resolve without effect....or when as much of the card's effect is carried out as possible.

In paticular the situation came up of using Disappear against Dragon's Mirror. If Disappear is chained to Dragon's Mirror then obviously there is no fusion summon, however, would the rest of the fusion material monsters be removed from play? Why or why not?

I'm looking for a template to use for when Disappear lets the card it's chained to carry out as much of the effect as possible or negates the effect it's chained to....any help here?
 
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Fusions, as we have discussed previously, do not "cost". The Monsters are sent at resolution, when the Fusion Monster is brought out. This is also, by the way, when you determine which Fusion Monster to bring out. If one or more of the necessary fusion Monsters is removed, the whole effect dissappears.

Note:
Polymerization
"¢ [Re: Disturbance Strategy] You can also chain "Disturbance Strategy" to "Polymerization" and, if the opponent no longer has the Fusion Material Monsters (if they were in his hand for example) then the effect of "Polymerization" disappears.

It should be the same for Dragon's Mirror and removing from Grave Yard, etc.

Now this raises a question though: If you have 5 Dragons (one is Ragnarock) and an appropriate Material Substitute and you wish to Fusion 5 God Dragon and one of your Materails is removed in a chain so you cannot, your opponent says, "Well, you can bring out King Dragun." To which you reply, "I don't have one." He should be able to sift through your Fusion Monsters to ensure that you truly do not, right?
 
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Dragon's Mirror targets. Doesnt that also mean that you must declare which monster you want to summon at activation?
You have to, else your opponent cant verify that the targets are legal. This also means you can only summon the monster you declared (and probably showed to your opponent to verify that you have it in your fusion deck - like with Future Fusion).
 
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It would appear to me now from the text of Dragon's Mirror that all of the effect text happens at resolution...

Dragon's Mirror

Text
Remove from play, from your side of the field or your Graveyard, Fusion Material Monsters that are listed on a Dragon-Type Fusion Monster Card, and Special Summon that Fusion Monster from your Fusion Deck. (This Special Summon is treated as a Fusion Summon).

So, if Disappear was chained to Dragon's Mirror and their is noting else in chain, Disappear resolves, then Dragon's mirror names the fusion material monsters and fusion monster. Disappear *might not* have any effect on the resolution of Dragon's Miror whatsoever depending on what's on the field and what is in the graveyard after the resoluton of Disappear.

If, however, there are not enough legal targets (fusion material monsters named on a fusion monster) left on the field and / or in the graveyard, the effect of Dragon's Mirror resolves without effect.
 
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John Danker said:
I'm trying to get a handle on when Disappear makes certain cards resolve without effect....or when as much of the card's effect is carried out as possible.

In paticular the situation came up of using Disappear against Dragon's Mirror. If Disappear is chained to Dragon's Mirror then obviously there is no fusion summon, however, would the rest of the fusion material monsters be removed from play? Why or why not?

I'm looking for a template to use for when Disappear lets the card it's chained to carry out as much of the effect as possible or negates the effect it's chained to....any help here?
Click to expand...
Dragon's Mirror, along with the other varients of it, have targetting effects. If one of those targets happens to be in the Graveyard and then is removed by Disappear, the entire effect of Dragon's Mirror, or respective varient, would resolve without effect. A good example of this would be Pot of Avarice. So Dragon's Mirror wouldn't remove from play any monsters. Just like how Pot of Avarice wouldn't shuffle the last four monsters back into your deck and allow you to draw two cards.
 
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but Dragon's Mirror doesn't target at activation it would appear.....so if your opponent chains Disappear and targets a card, after the resolution of Disappear then Dragon's Mirror targets the fusion material monsters. So Dragon's Mirror COULD still resolve properly....potentially, depending on what's left in the graveyard and on the field. If there are no proper fusion material monsters left at the resolution of Dragon's Mirror to satisfy it's effect THEN Dragon's Mirror resolves without effect.....is my line of thinking along with yours?
 
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I'm trying to think of cards that have effects that target at resolution rather than at activation, but for some reason, I can't think of where to look for them (and I keep getting called away from the computer)...so any examples would be nice. Remember, Target...at Resolution.
 
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John Danker said:
but Dragon's Mirror doesn't target at activation it would appear.....so if your opponent chains Disappear and targets a card, after the resolution of Disappear then Dragon's Mirror targets the fusion material monsters. So Dragon's Mirror COULD still resolve properly....potentially, depending on what's left in the graveyard and on the field. If there are no proper fusion material monsters left at the resolution of Dragon's Mirror to satisfy it's effect THEN Dragon's Mirror resolves without effect.....is my line of thinking along with yours?
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If Dragon's Mirror doesn't target at activation, then it should be a targeting effect. That's how targetting effects work, correct?

I don't believe there is a card that has a non-targetting effect that targets during resolution.
 
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I think that's what has me so screwed up here. The seperation of target / effect or in other cases cost / effect.

In some cards the cost and effect is seperated by a period as is the simple case of Tribute to the Doomed...

Text
Discard 1 card from your hand. Select 1 monster on the field and destroy it.

That makes it simple. Cost <period> then effect. The same would be nice for cards that target at activation, then resolution follows. That's what I'm trying to template here if I can.

The way Dragon's Mirror reads with all the commas, it looks as though it all happens at resolution, the selection of fusion material monsters and the fusion summon. If I'm wrong here by all means point it out to me but when doing so please give me reasons why I'm wrong so I can understand?
 
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DarkLogicianOfCaos said:
I'm trying to think of cards that have effects that target at resolution rather than at activation, but for some reason, I can't think of where to look for them (and I keep getting called away from the computer)...so any examples would be nice. Remember, Target...at Resolution.
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I don't want to open a can of worms, but what about Call of the Haunted?
 
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Call of the Haunted targets at activation as does Premature Burial, look at the card text of both of these two and there isn't anything in the effect text that really points toward that...

Premature Burial

Text:
Pay 800 Life Points. Select 1 monster from your Graveyard, Special Summon it on the field in face-up Attack Position, and equip it with this card. When this card is destroyed, destroy the equipped monster.

Call of the Haunted

Text:
Select 1 monster from your Graveyard and Special Summon it in face-up Attack Position. When this card is removed from the field, destroy the monster. When the monster is destroyed, destroy this card.

The way Premature Burial is worded it looks like (I emphsis LOOKS like) you pay a cost, if there is no response you then name the target. Just no consistancy, no template. That's what I'm after.
 
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Yes, it would be nice if there were a template. It seems all too often something gets lost in translation. But I'm no longer accepting that as a legitimate excuse haha.
 
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Hmmm..... well, look at Magical Dimention... It specificaly says "you can destroy 1 Monster on the field." If that doesn't suggest Targeting, I don't know what does. However, the rulings specifically say...
"¢ Because you select which monster to destroy when "Magical Dimension" resolves, (not when it's activated) "Magical Dimension" does not target.

So it seems that, by definition, if it "targets" during resolution, it does not Target at all. If that is the case, then Dragon's Mirror, because it Targets, MUST send at activation, not resolution. Okay, John, now I'm spinning a little.

Another fine example:

A Feather of the Phoenix
Normal Spell
Discard 1 card from your hand. Select 1 card from your Graveyard and return it to the top of your Deck.
edit <don't know what I was looking at, sorry>: -does target-

Or, better:

Advanced Ritual Art
Ritual Spell
Select 1 Ritual Monster in your hand. Send Normal Monsters from your Deck to the Graveyard whose total Levels are equal to that Ritual Monster's. Ritual Summon a card with the name of the selected Ritual Monster from your hand.
"¢ This effect does not target anything.
"¢ You choose the Ritual Monster you want to Ritual Summon when the effect resolves.


My favorite is: "¢ "Blowback Dragon"'s effect does target. The target is the selected card.
 
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Welcome to the club, I'm spinning a little too.

Dragon's Mirror

Text
Remove from play, from your side of the field or your Graveyard, Fusion Material Monsters that are listed on a Dragon-Type Fusion Monster Card, and Special Summon that Fusion Monster from your Fusion Deck. (This Special Summon is treated as a Fusion Summon).

Doesn't the AND highlighted suggest this all happens at once? I agree that the rule of thumb is that things that happen at resolution don't target. I also know that an AND usually means it happens together, not one part at activation and one part at resolution. The same text is messed up in COTH. In the text of Premature Burial there is no AND, it's seperated by a comma. No consistancy whatsoever......So how are we to know what Dragon's Mirror when (and if) it targets and when the fusion mateiral monsters are removed from play?
 
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DarkLogicianOfCaos said:
Hmmm..... well, look at Magical Dimention... It specificaly says "you can destroy 1 Monster on the field." If that doesn't suggest Targeting, I don't know what does. However, the rulings specifically say...
"¢ Because you select which monster to destroy when "Magical Dimension" resolves, (not when it's activated) "Magical Dimension" does not target.

So it seems that, by definition, if it "targets" during resolution, it does not Target at all. If that is the case, then Dragon's Mirror, because it Targets, MUST send at activation, not resolution. Okay, John, now I'm spinning a little.

Another fine example:

A Feather of the Phoenix
Normal Spell
Discard 1 card from your hand. Select 1 card from your Graveyard and return it to the top of your Deck.
-does not target-

Or, better:

Advanced Ritual Art
Ritual Spell
Select 1 Ritual Monster in your hand. Send Normal Monsters from your Deck to the Graveyard whose total Levels are equal to that Ritual Monster's. Ritual Summon a card with the name of the selected Ritual Monster from your hand.
"¢ This effect does not target anything.
"¢ You choose the Ritual Monster you want to Ritual Summon when the effect resolves.


My favorite is: "¢ "Blowback Dragon"'s effect does target. The target is the selected card.
Click to expand...
A Feather of the Phoenix has a targetting effect. Its last official ruling even says it does. It targets just as much as Tribute to the Doomed and Raigeki Break target.

Advanced Ritual Art doesn't target because you're searching your deck to send normal monsters to the Graveyard during its resolution. You aren't selecting anything when it activates.

Blowback Dragon's effect targets when you activate the effect. The coin flips are merely a determining factor of whether any monsters will get destroyed or not.

A targetting effect is an effect that targets upon activation of the card. Dragon's Mirror does fit this description because you declare what monsters on your field and/or in your Graveyard you desire to remove from play and for what Fusion Monster.

So John, lets look at Blowback Dragon for a moment here. It says you flip coins and destroy monsters if you get two heads. We know that Blowback Dragon is a targetting effect and you select the target upon activation. With the way cards like Dragon's Mirror are worded, it's suggesting what you do to the targets if the card isn't negated.

At least that's how I'm seeing it.
 
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You're missing the point here TK....

Blowback Dragon

Text:
Toss a coin 3 times. If at least 2 of the results are Heads, select 1 card on your opponent's side of the field and destroy it. You can only activate this effect once per turn, during your Main Phase

If you look at that card text it's so poorly templated that it appears as though the seclection of the card to destroy happens at resolution (yes, I know it targets at activation and the rulings say so) My point is, from the card text, without rulings in front of us? From the card text of Blowback Dragon it makes it appear as the card being selected after the coin toss at resolution.

There doesn't appear to be any logical order to many card's text which gives us firm direction as to the order of events.

*EDIT*

I didn't think that cards in the graveyard were considered "targeted" I thought only cards on the field could be considered targeted....what example of a card can you give me that says in the rules it tagets something in the graveyard....not saying there isn't any, just can't recall any.
 
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Pot of Avarice, Soul Release, Disspear, Call of the Haunted, Monster Reborn, and Premature Burial all target card(s) in the Graveyard.

Were cards like that what you were looking for John?
 
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Tkwiget said:
Pot of Avarice, Soul Release, Disspear, Call of the Haunted, Monster Reborn, and Premature Burial all target card(s) in the Graveyard.

Were cards like that what you were looking for John?
Click to expand...

Fair enough, on further examination of the rulings for Disappear it clearly states that. I'm so used to seeing the phrase "select" on these cards and equating the word "select" with something that doesn't target.

This still doesn't tell me though what in the card text of Dragon's Mirror suggests that it targets at activation, nor does the card text of Blowback Dragon, or a lot of other cards for that matter.

It would seem that every time a card comes out we have to ask the judge list, "Does this card target? If so at activation or resolution?" Since there are no rulings on Dragon's Mirror I'm at a loss to know which. As you can tell this frustrates me to no end.
 
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I'm assuming you're building some kind of Dragon deck and that's why it frustrates you.

Maybe it targets for this reason?

Remove from play, from your side of the field or your Graveyard, Fusion Material Monsters that are listed on a Dragon-Type Fusion Monster Card, and Special Summon that Fusion Monster from your Fusion Deck. (This Special Summon is treated as a Fusion Summon).

When it comes to this kind of stuff I come up short as well John. I mean...look at Necrovalley. It says that Fiber Jar of all things targets. How? I have no clue. So the problem is bluntly there and it burns in the back of my mind. It wouldn't be a bad idea for UDE and Konami to sit down and do a nice thorough overhaul of official card rulings. But that'll never happen. =/
 
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