Gearfried (both) questions/issues

S

skey23

Council of Heroes
Ok, we've been getting a lot of questions about "Blast with Chain" and "Gearfried the Iron Knight". We've had several discussions about how everything works. But something just popped into my head that has me wondering. Since I didn't want to muddy up anybody else's specific posts, I decided to voice my 'wonders' here.

Do we consider the effects of "Gearfried the Iron Knight" and "Gearfried the Swordmaster" to be pretty much identical effects, except for what they destroy?

Let's look at their text, shall we...

"Gearfried the Iron Knight" - "When an Equip Card is equipped to this card, destroy the Equip Card."

"Gearfried the Swordmaster" - "This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special Summoned except by the effect of "Release Restraint". When this card is equipped with an Equip Card, destroy 1 monster on your opponent's side of the field."

Ok, so when either is equipped with an Equip Card, their effects activate and attempt to destroy something.

If we consider them pretty much the same, then let's look at this ruling for "Gearfried the Swordmaster".
The effect of "Gearfried the Swordmaster" is a Trigger Effect that can be chained to, starting a new chain after the current chain resolves. You can chain "Divine Wrath" to the activation of this effect.
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It doesn't say it can interrupt a chain resolution. It says it WILL start a new chain AFTER the current chain resolves.

So WHERE did we get the idea that "Gearfried the Iron Knight" can interrupt a chain resolution? I searched the Judge's List for all references to "Gearfried" and didn't find anything related to this. Is this another BKSS?

Let's look at "Divine Wrath" .vs both of these monsters. Based on the ruling I quoted, you can chain "Divine Wrath" and destroy "Gearfried the Swordmaster", even if he is equipped mid-chain because his effect waits for the chain resolution.
If we go by what's being said (myself included) about "Gearfried the Iron Knight", then you would NOT be able to use "Divine Wrath" against his effect if activated mid-chain since his effect would activate and resolve between the steps of the chain, and "Divine Wrath" wouldn't be able to interrupt that chain resolution.

What does everybody else have to say about this?
 
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However, there are other effects that are continuous and not chainable which can be confusing in their wording (such as Giant Orc, the LP infliction of Mefist, and Flame Sprite).


That's right, but in the case of Gearfried we have a ruling from UDE that specifically states that you can chain to the effect of destroying a card ( the ruling refers to Butterfly-Dagger Elma but I see no reason to assume it would be different with any other equip card ). That's actually what contradicts the theory that it's a continuous effect.
 
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carlossilva said:
However, there are other effects that are continuous and not chainable which can be confusing in their wording (such as Giant Orc, the LP infliction of Mefist, and Flame Sprite).


That's right, but in the case of Gearfried we have a ruling from UDE that specifically states that you can chain to the effect of destroying a card ( the ruling refers to Butterfly-Dagger Elma but I see no reason to assume it would be different with any other equip card ). That's actually what contradicts the theory that it's a continuous effect.
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Think about what you are saying. You aren't chaining to Gearfried's Effect. You're chaining to when the Equip Card becomes equipped.

Gearfried can only destroy an Equip Card at RESOLUTION as I have been saying for a while now. If Gearfried the Iron Knight destroyed a Equip Card at activation, this would not be an issue because the Equip Card would not be considered Equipped, and thus, "not fully resolved".

Since the Equip Card must resolve, and at that point be considered "Equipped" before Gearfried can destroy it, why shouldnt you be able to chain to Gearfried destroying an Equip Card? It's considered "Equipped", right?
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Now, the only issue is, how many actual effects can be chained to the resolution of an Equip Card on Gearfried, that are similar to Really Eternal Rest?

I think Really Eternal Rest is the only card that works in this situation.
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*shrughs* None other than Really Eternal Rest and Divine Wrath I think.

I thought we aGreed that finally the effect of Gearfried the Swordmaster and Gearfried the Iron Knight are the same (Trigger)? If so, have a look at the ruling of Swordsmaster.

[Re: Gearfried the Swordmaster] The effect of "Gearfried the Swordmaster" is a Trigger Effect that can be chained to, starting a new chain after the current chain resolves. You can chain "Divine Wrath" to the activation of this effect.

However, it is a bit tricky.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Think about what you are saying. You aren't chaining to Gearfried's Effect. You're chaining to when the Equip Card becomes equipped.

Gearfried can only destroy an Equip Card at RESOLUTION as I have been saying for a while now. If Gearfried the Iron Knight destroyed a Equip Card at activation, this would not be an issue because the Equip Card would not be considered Equipped, and thus, "not fully resolved".

Since the Equip Card must resolve, and at that point be considered "Equipped" before Gearfried can destroy it, why shouldnt you be able to chain to Gearfried destroying an Equip Card? It's considered "Equipped", right?
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No, read the ruling again, trust me i read it 100 times. They are implying that Gearfried's effect is infact a Trigger Effect.

You don't chain to resolution, you respond to it.

"When "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" is destroyed by "Gearfried the Iron Knight"'s effect, you can chain to this effect with "Really Eternal Rest" and destroy "Gearfried the Iron Knight"

- Since you can only activate Really Eternal Rest in this case while Gearfried is actually equipped (before the Dagger is destroyed), they are implying that his effect triggers, and you chain directly to it.

", and "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" will be destroyed because "Gearfried the Iron Knight" was destroyed, so "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" cannot return to the owner's hand."

- So Gearfried's effect never touches the Dagger, and both cards are destroyed. Since the Dagger is now destroyed by lack of target...it's effect never triggers.

I'm with you, and have always ruled it as continuous.
 
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Gearfried the Swordmaster's effect IS a triggered effect. Once he is equipped with a Equip Card, his effect activates to destroy 1 monster.

Gearfried the Iron Knight doesnt activate an effect. He always "attempts to" destroy a Equip Card. There is nothing to activate once a card is equipped, it's destroyed, unlike Swordmaster.

The point is, Swordmaster's effect is not continuous, as that would mean that as long as he had an Equip Card attached to him, he could destroy a monster continuously until there were none left, and once you summoned a monster, he could destroy that one also, using the same previously equipped card.

One Equip, One Monster. Two Equips, Two Monsters. Not One Equip, Multiple Monsters. That would be "Continuous" and not "Triggered".

It's easier to say Gearfried the Iron Knight has an effect that triggers because of when it actually reacts to an Equip Card, but it is not a "true" triggered effect. It's more of a resolution, than an activation, so there cant be a trigger.
 
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Yes, but neither he is a 'perfect' continuous effect.
He is somewhere between. Partly trigger (equipping needed, doesn't have to do something else with the field) and partly continuous (just destroys the card when it is equipped).
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Gearfried the Swordmaster's effect IS a triggered effect. Once he is equipped with a Equip Card, his effect activates to destroy 1 monster.

Gearfried the Iron Knight doesnt activate an effect. He always "attempts to" destroy a Equip Card. There is nothing to activate once a card is equipped, it's destroyed, unlike Swordmaster.

The point is, Swordmaster's effect is not continuous, as that would mean that as long as he had an Equip Card attached to him, he could destroy a monster continuously until there were none left, and once you summoned a monster, he could destroy that one also, using the same previously equipped card.

One Equip, One Monster. Two Equips, Two Monsters. Not One Equip, Multiple Monsters. That would be "Continuous" and not "Triggered".
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Forget about the Swordmaster...i'm specifically talking about the Iron Knight...which is where the ruling came from.

It's universally understood that the Swordmaster is a Trigger Effect, quite frankly because they flat out say that in the rulings.

masterwoo0 said:
It's easier to say Gearfried the Iron Knight has an effect that triggers because of when it actually reacts to an Equip Card, but it is not a "true" triggered effect. It's more of a resolution, than an activation, so there cant be a trigger.
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Right, that's the issue... the ruling states the opposite of what you and I believe... i broke it down.
 
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novastar said:
No, read the ruling again, trust me i read it 100 times. They are inplying that Gearfried's effect is infact a Trigger Effect.

You don't chain to resolution, you respond to it.

I'm with you, and have always ruled it as continuous.
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What is happening is, under a "Normal" situation, we'll use Gemini Elf

Player A equips Axe of Despair to Gemini Elf.

Player B activates Really Eternal Rest (but does not chain, since Axe of Despair is not considered "equipped" yet).

RESOLVE

Player B's Really Eternal Rest destroys Gemini Elf.


Now, let's use Gearfried the Iron Knight.

Player A equips Axe of Despair to Gearfried the Iron Knight.

RESOLVE

Player A's Axe of Despair resolves and equips to Gearfried the Iron Knight (how do we know this, because Gearfried attempts to destroy it)

Player B activates Really Eternal Rest at the point of Gearfried destroying Axe of Despair, as it can only be considered an "equipped card" when it has resolved, but before it is destroyed.

So if you waited for it to be destroyed, the timing would be lost.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
What is happening is, under a "Normal" situation, we'll use Gemini Elf

Player A equips Axe of Despair to Gemini Elf.

Player B activates Really Eternal Rest (but does not chain, since Axe of Despair is not considered "equipped" yet).

RESOLVE

Player B's Really Eternal Rest destroys Gemini Elf.


Now, let's use Gearfried the Iron Knight.

Player A equips Axe of Despair to Gearfried the Iron Knight.

RESOLVE

Player A's Axe of Despair resolves and equips to Gearfried the Iron Knight (how do we know this, because Gearfried attempts to destroy it)

Player B activates Really Eternal Rest at the point of Gearfried destroying Axe of Despair, as it can only be considered an "equipped card" when it has resolved, but before it is destroyed.

So if you waited for it to be destroyed, the timing would be lost.
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True, and that is also the reason why I consider it Trigger.
 
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But you cant really consider it a Trigger. Really Eternal Rest can only be activated either at resolution of a Spell or Trap Equip Card, or to destroy a monster that has a previously resolved Equip Card.

You have to wait until the Equip Card is actually equipped to Gearfried to activate Really Eternal Rest. There is no reason why you can't.

It's just a poorly worded ruling as to why they say it's activated in a chain.

I think they tried to explain the mechanics, but couldnt get away from the fact that Really Eternal Rest slides into that window before Gearfried can destroy Butterfly Dagger - Elma, which means that Dagger is NOT destroyed by Gearfried.
 
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BenjaminMS said:
Yes, but neither he is a 'perfect' continuous effect.
He is somewhere between. Partly trigger (equipping needed, doesn't have to do something else with the field) and partly continuous (just destroys the card when it is equipped).
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That's not exactly it... that act of "equipping" is not what Gearfried reacts to (the Iron Knight) reacts to, it's just being equipped... there is a difference.

For example, if you equipped GtIK with Fusion Sword and somhow managed to negate the no-destruction effect (say 3 turns afterwards), Gearfried would still destroy it instantly.

It's not a reaction to him being equipped, but the existance of an equip being attached to him.

That has always been my understanding of it, and why it is Continuous instead of Triggered.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Player B activates Really Eternal Rest at the point of Gearfried destroying Axe of Despair, as it can only be considered an "equipped card" when it has resolved, but before it is destroyed.

So if you waited for it to be destroyed, the timing would be lost.
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That unfortunately doesn't make any sense, if you say Gearfried's effect is continuous.

But even if it did, the ruling says that it is being "chained" ...so what is it being "chained" to? They are implying that it is being chained to Gearfried's Trigger Effect...prior to it resolving and destroying the Dagger.

Once again, according to the ruling, this is how it would look:

[Chain Link 1] Axe of Despair (target -> Gearfried)

resolve

[Chain Link 1] Axe of Despair (equips to Gearfried, and give 1000 ATK)

{Response Chain}

[Chain Link 1] Gearfried (destroy Axe)

* they are saying you chain Really Etrnal Rest here.

[Chain Link 2] Really Eternal Rest

resolve...

[Chain Link 2] Really Eternal Rest (destroys all equipped monsters)
[Chain Link 1] *dissappears*


I don't know what else to say, i've given all the evidence.
 
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novastar said:
That's not exactly it... that act of "equipping" is not what Gearfried reacts to (the Iron Knight) reacts to, it's just being equipped... there is a difference.

For example, if you equipped GtIK with Fusion Sword and somhow managed to negate the no-destruction effect (say 3 turns afterwards), Gearfried would still destroy it instantly.

It's not a reaction to him being equipped, but the existance of an equip being attached to him.

That has always been my understanding of it, and why it is Continuous instead of Triggered.
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Mm... the problem is: you actually can't avoid destroying the card immidiately after it was (alright, succesfully) equipped.
 
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BenjaminMS said:
Mm... the problem is: you actually can't avoid destroying the card immidiately after it was (alright, succesfully) equipped.
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Yes you can...

If Skill Drain is negating Gearfried's effect, and you equip him, and then Skill Drain is destroyed at a later time, Gearfried's effect will automatically destroy the Equip.

That is indicative of a Continuous Effect. It doesn't react to an equip event, it reacts to the existance of an Equip attached to him.
 
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