I need a recap on Dark World...

[Tkwiget]

I'm pretty sure I'd rule correctly on these situations. Just want to make sure.

Situation A

Turn Player has Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World and Sillva, Warlord of Dark World in his hand. Player B has a Set Bottomless Trap Hole. Turn Player activates Card Destruction. Card Destruction resolves completely. Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World and Sillva, Warlord of Dark World are Special Summoned to the field. Player B responds by activating Bottomless Trap Hole. Both Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World and Sillva, Warlord of Dark World are destroyed and removed from play.

Situation B

Turn Player has an active Royal Oppression on the field. Player B has three Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World in his hand. Turn Player activates Card Destruction. All of the Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World activate at the same time to Special Summon onto the field. The Turn Player activates Royal Oppression to pay 800 Life Points to negate the Special Summoning of all three Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World.

Situation C

Turn Player has a Set Morphing Jar with three copies of Broww, Huntsman of Dark World in his hand. Turn Player Flip Summons his Morphing Jar and discards all three copies of Broww, Huntsman of Dark World. The Turn Player first draws his five new cards from Morphing Jar's effect and then draws one card per copy of Broww, Huntsman of Dark World that he discarded from Morphing Jar's effect.


Am I correct on all three of these situations? The first two situations I'm ruling on like that because Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World, Sillva, Warlord of Dark World, and Biiege, Vanguard of Dark World don't trigger their special summoning effect when entering a game phase, like Vampire Lord.

I've got a regional coming up that I'm judging and I need a recap on these situations. =)

 

[Tiso]

But the declaration is not the summon itself. It will still be placed on the field, in which case the Spell Speed 3 card that will negate its summon will be activated and thus negates it summon and destroy it. It will have been considered not summoned successfully even if it was placed on the field.

 

[masterwoo0]

Just for your reading enjoyment.....

http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=8650#8650


[edit]I'm not sure if that's what you were looking for Woo0.

Well, that reinforces what I have been saying, that obviously, there is some connection to a mind state that Solemn Judgment and Horn of Heaven certainly can be activated to negate the summon of Jinzo, but this is one of those opportunities to say, "but wait, it doesnt matter that its Jinzo cause he would never hit the field to negate them anyway."

 

[masterwoo0]

But the declaration is not the summon itself. It will still be placed on the field, in which case the Spell Speed 3 card that will negate its summon will be activated and thus negates it summon and destroy it. It will have been considered not summoned successfully even if it was placed on the field.

This really is too simple of a question to go unanswered if sent to the Judge List.

"Does Solemn Judgment negate the summon of a monster from the field, or hand?

I'd ask, but I still cant send questions, so I dont bother anymore. I just debate until someone else does it... :djmorph

 

[Tiso]

Since when does a summon occur anywhere else but the field? You are making this situation way too complex than it should be when it is really simple. It is summoned to the field, but it is negated and destroyed. Just think of it like how Skill Drain is out when it comes to effect monsters, except Solemn Judgment or Horn of Heaven is not face-up all the time.

 

[skey23]

Forgive me if this has been stated already, but here's my take on this whole "Jinzo" thing.

The way that most people play is kind of willie nillie. They don't truly announce their moves, they don't wait for the opponent to respond. So, correct me if I'm wrong here, this is 'usually' how "Jinzo" comes to the field:

P1 has a set "Solemn Judgment".
P2 has "Treeborn Frog" on the field, and "Jinzo" in hand.
It's P2s turn.
P2 Draws, then immediately puts "Jinzo" on the field and says they Tribute Summon "Jinzo", then they put "Treeborn Frog" into the Graveyard. All w/o waiting for P1 to respond at all.
Now, P1 wants to activate "Solemn Judment", but since "Jinzo" is already on the field P2 says they can't because "Jinzo" prevents Trap Cards from being activated. How many times have you seen and/or heard that argument?

I believe that UDE/Konami stating that "Solemn Judgment"/"Horn of Heaven" can be activated to negate the Summon of "Jinzo" was an attempt to eliminate the "you can't do that" argument with this scenario, w/o having to try to explain the 'window' of activation for Summon negation that exists with EVERY card. And the ONLY reason for this is because "Jinzo" negates Traps. With ANY other monster (at the time), there wasn't an issue with "you can't do that" with any other monster, that I am aware of.


Just my thoughts.

 

[masterwoo0]

Since when does a summon occur anywhere else but the field? You are making this situation way too complex than it should be when it is really simple. It is summoned to the field, but it is negated and destroyed. Just think of it like how Skill Drain is out when it comes to effect monsters, except Solemn Judgment or Horn of Heaven is not face-up all the time.

Im not making it complex. I always said that the monster is negated from the field!! What side of the fence do you think Im on???

 

[skey23]

This really is too simple of a question to go unanswered if sent to the Judge List.

"Does Solemn Judgment negate the summon of a monster from the field, or hand?

I'd ask, but I still cant send questions, so I dont bother anymore. I just debate until someone else does it... :djmorph

Well that's a fun one. Because we have rulings that state the monster is not considered to be on the field, AND we have rulings to stated it's not in the Hand anymore. Does anybody remember our 'Limbo' discussion about 6 months ago?....lol.

 

[masterwoo0]

Forgive me if this has been stated already, but here's my take on this whole "Jinzo" thing.

The way that most people play is kind of willie nillie. They don't truly announce their moves, they don't wait for the opponent to respond. So, correct me if I'm wrong here, this is 'usually' how "Jinzo" comes to the field:

P1 has a set "Solemn Judgment".
P2 has "Treeborn Frog" on the field, and "Jinzo" in hand.
It's P2s turn.
P2 Draws, then immediately puts "Jinzo" on the field and says they Tribute Summon "Jinzo", then they put "Treeborn Frog" into the Graveyard. All w/o waiting for P1 to respond at all.
Now, P1 wants to activate "Solemn Judment", but since "Jinzo" is already on the field P2 says they can't because "Jinzo" prevents Trap Cards from being activated. How many times have you seen and/or heard that argument?

I believe that UDE/Konami stating that "Solemn Judgment"/"Horn of Heaven" can be activated to negate the Summon of "Jinzo" was an attempt to eliminate the "you can't do that" argument with this scenario, w/o having to try to explain the 'window' of activation for Summon negation that exists with EVERY card. And the ONLY reason for this is because "Jinzo" negates Traps. With ANY other monster (at the time), there wasn't an issue with "you can't do that" with any other monster, that I am aware of.


Just my thoughts.

But they go through all the trouble of making a FAQ that discusses Chains and Replays and Activations, but cant spare a few words to say that "You cannot activate Solemn Judgment in response to a monster that is placed on the field!"

I find that puzzling.

 

[skey23]

But they go through all the trouble of making a FAQ that discusses Chains and Replays and Activations, but cant spare a few words to say that "You cannot activate Solemn Judgment in response to a monster that is placed on the field!"

I find that puzzling.

Re-read what I just said..lol. How do 'most' people play this game? Do they wait for their opponent? No. So if UDE/Konami comes out and says that "Solemn Judgment"/"Horn of Heaven" cannot be activated once a monster has been placed on the field, then it would cause rediculous issues at tournaments nationwide. Could you imagine the game state?

They took an easier road by saying "it doesn't matter if the monster has already hit the field, these cards make it so they really didn't" in order to keep the game play flowing, is my assumption here...lol

 

[masterwoo0]

Re-read what I just said..lol. How do 'most' people play this game? Do they wait for their opponent? No. So if UDE/Konami comes out and says that "Solemn Judgment"/"Horn of Heaven" cannot be activated once a monster has been placed on the field, then it would cause rediculous issues at tournaments nationwide. Could you imagine the game state?

They took an easier road by saying "it doesn't matter if the monster has already hit the field, these cards make it so they really didn't" in order to keep the game play flowing, is my assumption here...lol

But that just endorses bad play instead of correcting it, and confuses debates such as these as you have no real basis for an argument since they took the "on the fence" approach, and left it to us to fall one way or the other.

Again, it's too simple to ask the Judge List when the negation occurs. On the field, or with the monster still in hand.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

There will be no record of any evidence of the event of that monster hitting the field.

It does hit the field. It never had hit the field. (notice the tense differences)

Simple by non-linear temporal mechanic standards.

The real question is more complicated:

The monster ceases to have existed, yet what happens to the card?

(Actually since we have a recent ruling of cards being in the graveyard without ever being sent, we might find out that the Card is jsut in the graveyard, having been destroyed, but not sent.)

It's only difficult if you try thinking in only 3 variable dimensions.

 

[Digital Jedi]

There will be no record of any evidence of the event of that monster hitting the field.

It does hit the field. It never had hit the field. (notice the tense differences)

Simple by non-linear temporal mechanic standards.

The real question is more complicated:

The monster ceases to have existed, yet what happens to the card?

(Actually since we have a recent ruling of cards being in the graveyard without ever being sent, we might find out that the Card is jsut in the graveyard, having been destroyed, but not sent.)

It's only difficult if you try thinking in only 3 variable dimensions.

I mean this in the nicest possible way. I hate you.

 

[Kyhotae]

I know I said this before, but it bears repeating:

"You guys realize that the way that "Dark World" monsters are Summoned when they're discarded to the Graveyard is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT from a Normal Summon from the hand, right?

And, woo0, the proper timing for "Solemn Judgment" is when a monster is Summoned. The proper timing for "Bottomless Trap Hole" is when a monster is successfully Summoned. There's a few seconds and hopefully some words Exchanged between players in between there. You can't say the timing is the same, just close."

I agree with woo0. The card is on the field before "Solmen Judgment" can be activated, but the timing is still not the same as "Bottomless Trap Hole" because you can only activate "Bottomless Trap Hole" AFTER you pass on the opportunity to activate "Solemn Judgment". 92 posts laster and that's really all there is to it.

If you must have an answer to "where is the monster destroyed - field or hand," consider this: The text of "Solmen Judgment" says that it negates the Summon and destroys the card that was trying to be Summoned. What if it just said that it negates the Summon? The card would go back to your hand. Unfortunately, it isn't just negated but also destroyed, so it "starts" to go back to the hand when it realizes that it's destroyed, then it goes to the Graveyard. I'd say that it is somewhere between the field and your hand when it is destroyed if you go by what the text of "Solemn Judgment" says...

 

[masterwoo0]

I know what you're saying, but all Solemn Judgment does is erase a "successful summon".

What other summons are there? A summon is either successful or its not. There is no "in between" summon.

If I activate Solemn Judgment, and you chain Seven Tools of the Bandit to destroy it, what happens at the end of the chain? Does the monster go back to hand to be summoned again, or is it successfully summoned, and does this mean NOW you can activate Bottomless Trap Hole?


Solemn Judgment
Counter Trap

Pay half of your Life Points. Negate an activation of a Spell / Trap Card / Normal Summon / Flip Summon / Special Summon and destroy the Spell Card, Trap Card, or Summoned monster.


For the record, there is no "...tried to be summoned."

It says "...destroy the summoned monster."

 

[Kyhotae]

True enough, but the definition of a "successfull Summon" is one that isn't negated by "Horn of Heaven", "Royal Oppression", or "Solemn Judgment".

So there're two kinds of Summon. One that is "successful" (is not negated by "Solemn Judgment, et. al.), and one that is "not successful" (IS negated by "Solemn Judgment, et. al.).

As far as I can tell, those are the "game mechanics" involved.

 

[anthonyj]

Just because I like to watch DJ's veins in his head throb. How about this question.

When you declare the summon of a monster, do you have priority to negate the summon yourself, or does the opponent have first rights to negate the summon? In laymen's terms do you have to ask the opponent if they intend to Solemn Judgment/Horn of Heaven/Royal Oppression their own summoned monster before you are able to activate one of these effects to negate the summon? :]

 

[EmeraldDragon]

I'll get the ball rolling then anto.

Of course under the normal terms then he would have priority but some might say that since the monster has not hit the field (and never will) then he doesnt get the chance to claim anything other than he should have had a Royal Decree active on the field.

Think that might get him going. This thread has gotten fun. Its turned into a sligjtly pointless (the point is very distorted now) arguement that has gotten most people <......> this close to choking each other. Its great

 

[masterwoo0]

Okay... Today, at Shonen Jump Baltimore, I asked our Head Judge, John Williams, a Level 3 Judge, how he would rule the situation.

Would a monster's summon be negated while in hand, or would he need to be placed on the field to be negated. He almost laughed at my for asking!!

"His" answer was, the monster must be placed on the field before it can be negated.

I then asked him about "priority", and he responded, "How can a Player gain priority when the monster was never successfully summoned?"

 

[EmeraldDragon]

But put it like tis. When a monster hits the field then for all intents and purposes he must be summoned. A monster cannot exist on the field unless it has been summoned.

Now a continuous effect is just that a continuous effect. One that starts working the moment it hits the field. If he says that a monster must be on the field before he can be negated then how the hell is it we can negate Jinzo and wildheart and tiens summoning along with everyone else?

Also no disrespect to his rules knowledge as I personally have no idea who youre on about or what his rules knowledge level is BUT simply because he is a level 3 it doesnt mean that he is correct in this instance. Many of us here dont agree completely on this issue. I dont think any lv 3s here have gotten in on it I cant remember more than 5 or 6 posts behind this one but im sure all our lv 3s will have differing views. Until old Kevin goes and spends a little time just making out a paragraph or two of text stating exactly why negators work and where and how they work so things like this can be solved then there will always be differing views. Now we have rulings that suggest many things that both sides have said are true so instead of getting a simple stated ruling from one judge at one event lets just do our best to find a middle ground in which we can all stand together in agreement about our final decision.

 

[masterwoo0]

He wasnt the only one consulted. I believe Ian Estrin (UDE Representative) called Kevin Tewart in California personally, especially on the "Last Will" issue, which by the way, was ruled that it must be activated BEFORE the monster is sent to the Graveyard.

I may not know a lot of things, but I know I was right.

I dont see anyone arguing about Negate Attack. Can you activate Negate Attack "at any time" before the monster attacks? No. the monster must attempt an attack. Was the attack successful in order for its to be negated? No.

But, that's neither here nor there. At least "I" tried to verify my obstinance by ASKING, since I am unable to post to the Judge List, rather than attempt to reinforce something you "believe" to be true based upon a ruling that reinforces nothing.

And I didnt produce a name just to bolster my answer. Would it have been better for me to say, "Hey, I asked some LV3 Judge..."

A summon is only successful if it isnt negated. How can it be any other way?? Its the same as activating the effect of a spell card and using MST against it. It activates, is destroyed, but not negated, so the effect may resolve successfully dependent upon the type of effect.