I've tried to agree, but...

[Dr Sin]

I was thinking about Sangan and when his summon is negated via Horn of Heaven or Solemn Judgement. I searched in the forums, read the last discussion, I know the official rule says his effect is negated, but I still couldn' t "buy it".
Why his effect is negated if I summon him and the opponent "HoH, SJ"s him? Where is he at this moment and how is it possible to him not be in the hand or on the field? Is he in the already discussed "different dimension", "nowhere land", "limbo zone" etc?
I know the rule and I can just accept it, but if I could have some more reasons to believe it, it would be great.
Also, in the end, what statement about when Sangan is already face-down on the field, is flip-summoned and negated is accepted right now? In this case, his effect works or not?

Thanks in advande, sorry for my poor English and to be asking it again.

 

[skey23]

You are 100% correct, but my main reason for posting that ruling was to point out the fact the game does not consider the monster to have gone directly from the hand to the Graveyard when the summon is negated by "Horn of Heaven" or "Solemn Judgment".

 

[krazykidpsx]

if only yugi had a red zone like magic does...


(go watch the final of the PTLA coverage @ www.wizards.com/magic to understand what this red zone is)


and if by then you dont know then ill tell you.

basically the board they use is 2 parts

first part were your land goes.
2nd part were your monsters.
3rd part which is shared is the red zone.

when ever any spell is going to be played it is put in this zone to verify that it actually summons and doesnt get countered.

if it doesnt it goes into play if it does then you should oviously know were it lands.

in yugi i belive we should have this "red" zone so that stuff would be more accurate. Ill tribute 1 monster put this monster that costs 1 tribute into red zone to see if itll get its summon negated. If not then ill move it to its monster zone and summon became successfull and now i do its effect or another spell speed 1 monster effect.

easy huh

 

[masterwoo0]

I got ya. It just seems to be that if it never touched the field for purposes of Sangan's effect, and the last place it existed was not your Deck, but your hand, why would it not still be considered to go from hand to Graveyard??

Like Pssvr said, if I get in my car intending to go to the store, but I never leave my driveway or my car because I'm out of gas, have I really gone anywhere (Equate to attempting to summon Sangan, but summoning negated)? No.

The difference would be if I drove to the Store and ran out nearby (Equate to setting Sangan, and attempting to flip summon him, but summon negated). I made it near the store, but didnt make it inside the parking lot.

Am I still considered to be at the store for all intents and purposes, or would I still be considered leaving my house on my way too the store?

If the summon of Sangan was never accomplished, to me, that's just like saying it never really left my hand. But, if that's not how it is, then I can roll with it.

 

[Tkwiget]

<nods with John on this one> I can't see anything that supports how a negated card would be simpled thrown from the hand to the graveyard. Because you could almost argue that if a Normal Summon is negated that it would allow you to Normal Summon again. We know that you can't do that without the use of other cards.

<kills the college keyboards>

It's kind of hard to discuss. I doubt the mechanics behind how Sangan's effect wouldn't even go through if the summoning was negated. But then, I don't know how to explain this very well anyway. You could give life examples for days on end trying to explain the location of where the monster that was summoned is when the summoning is negated. I say the monster would be located on the field to make things more simple. But if that was the case, how would Sangan's effect not activate?

I feel that the actual physical location of the card is what's more important here. But that's just me.

Also, isn't Solemn Judgment and Horn of Heaven merely activated in responce to the summoning? I'm still hung up on that part too. @_@ Great judge exercise here to think deeply about mechanics. Which of course, I'm still trying to master. =/

 

[masterwoo0]

It is! Because in order to activate either card, the summon must take place to negate, but the action makes it so that the summon never took place, which in itself is kind of a double negative. "It did not, never happen". So even though Sangan (or Night Assailant) was summoned to the field, the negation prevented the summon from being recognized as a properly fielded summon, and therefore Sangan's effect does not resolve, and Night Assailant's effect cannot activate because they were actually summoned, then negated, then destroyed.

 

[krazykidpsx]

yes but you see you cant say "in responce to the summon" because its a little too late for cards like Jinzo. this is the reason why you dont say in responce to the summon.

its basically, i will or will not negate the summon then the summon either the summon becomes successfull or it doesnt.

 

[Tkwiget]

So, I still think the location of the monster that's being summoned is on the field when you negate the summoning. =/ Just feel that the actual phyiscal location is what we have to look at here. Just my opinion.

 

[Jason_C]

So, I still think the location of the monster that's being summoned is on the field when you negate the summoning. =/ Just feel that the actual phyiscal location is what we have to look at here. Just my opinion.

And since when has YGO been concrete and physical? You have to be philosophical about this. The summon never occured. The monster never left the player's hand. The fact that it DID leave the player's hand is only a minor detail...
-pssvr

 

[Tkwiget]

Blah, I've been hit with enough minor details to piss me off. This entire topic confuses me the heck out of me anyway. I can't seem to grasp any of it for some reason. >=(

Someone needs to get a raise so they actually would just work out the ins and outs of the mechanics of the game. And that would be their only job. Btw, if that job even does exist, I feel sorry for that person(s) involved in it.

 

[krazykidpsx]

it does and it doesnt.

like i stated we should have a red zone and i think that is were the monster is at, its not at the hand and its not on the field.

like in the explenation of the house, car, store.

basically the creature is in the car on the road heading towards the store.

but a police officer stoped the creature along the way getting only half way to the store and arrested them for driving under the influence. then they landed in jail (graveyard)

see it makes sence.

 

[Jason_C]

makes as much sense as being arrested and sent to jail by a playing card...
-pssvr

 

[Tkwiget]

So if the summoning is negated and is truely considered to have "never" happened then that means you should be allowed to Normal Summon again. After all, from what everyone is saying and based off their logic the summon NEVER happened. If something had never happened you can do what has never happened.

And where the actual card is probably is an important factor to me.

For your example that you drew up, it makes it seem like Solemn Judgment and Horn of Heaven activate in response to the summoning, with the obvious exception of Jinzo.

Still doesn't make any sense to me. I've been running it through my mind and still don't see how negating a summoning is considered to never have happened. I rather rule, "negating a summoning is considered to have prevented it from being successful and the monster is sent from the field to the Graveyard" and then you can argue Sangan and Witch of the Black Forest would activate and resolve, which of course they already have a ruling that they wouldn't.

Wow, this is really starting to piss me off. >=(

Note: It isn't you guys that are, just the mechanics and rulings that have been made.

 

[Jason_C]

And isn't that the same controversy that started this debate? Yes, it is. The fact is, the rulings conflict, and we won't know which one is correct unless someone e-mails UDE.
-pssvr

 

[Digital Jedi]

You see this is why, waaaaaay back when we had this discussion originally, that I was so adament about my definition of the word "negate". Even though this IS the correct definition of negate, most of you felt that the dictionary defition of negate didn't aplly here. But in my opinion I think it still the only thing that makes sense. So I'll state it again, much to your chagrin.

There is the opinion that a monster's summon has this chain point where the summon has not yet resolved. In this point is where the timing activation for the summon negators is belived to take place. When the summon is negated, it is belived the summon has not succesfully resolved so it is not considered to be on the field yet. I personally do not share this opinion, nor have I seen anything to support this notion. While it does provide some explanation to some events, like why I get to see what monster is being summoned before I decide to negate it, I belive it raises more questons then it answers.

"Negate" means to "rewind" or "undo" something. To make it as if it never happened. If a monster's summon is negated, then the event is rewound to a point where it is never considered to have hit the field. From my examinings of the summon process, this seems to be the case with the summon negators.

The summon does take place, which is why you get to see the monster summoned, but the summon negators "rewind" the event or "undo" it and make it "as if" the summon never happened. Since the game never considers the monster to have ht the field, then the monster does not gain any effects it may have had in relation to summoning or in relation to going from the field to the graveyard.

But from a physical perspective, and I'm not tralking about the metaphorical terms we like to use, I'm not talking about zones or "the game considers" or anything like that, I'm talking about wher the card I jaust had in my hand happens to be at the imte a summon ngator was played by my opponent. I'm talking about it's physical location and orientation. That card is in the field.

Again, let me reiterate, because folks had a hard time understanding this the first time I stated it, I'm not talking about where "the game" considers the card, I'm talking about where your sleeved copy of the monster you just spent twenty bucks on is sitting at this moment. The physical card.
It's on the field. You can argue philisopically that its not, but I'm not talking about philosiphy. You've placed a monster card on the field. Thats the whole reaon your opponent responded to your action.

Theres no doubt that physically, the card is on the field. Where "the game" consideres it, I'll get into a minute. But right noe I have a card that I just placed oin the field and now I have to get rid of it. So I place in my discard pile. I don't return it my hand first. I don't return to my deck. I don't pick it up hug it and kiss it and say "poor, poor, monster"./ I pick itup and put it in my Graveyard.

"The game" doen't consider it on the field". SO you don't get any "field to grave" or "summon" associated effects. "The game" doesn't consider it to be in my hand either. And this seems to be a point of contention and confusion among people.

Where getting to caught up on zones. A monster doesn't have to be in a zone of anykind and the summon negator prove this. The monster is simply destroyed. Nothing more and nothing less. The monster isn't considered to be anywhere, because the game designer/caretakers have chosen to not define the time rames between actions. If its not defined then we can't force it to be one place or the other until they so choose to define it.

Now I can see the argument for a Flip Summoned Sangan still getting his effect. But, again, we have no ruling to support that. We do have eveidence that its destroyed for no effect. This says to me that the intention of the summon negation cards was to simply destroy a monster with no regard to its location. And again, what do I do with a Flip Summoned monster? Do I flip it back down? No. Does the game consider it destroyed face-up or face-dpwn? It doesn't consider it destroyed in either position. Again, an area that has not yet been defined. Until it is defined, then it should be no different then when it goes from your hand to the field. Its just destroyed. Nothing more. Nothing less. No limbo Zone. No field. No hand No effect.

 

[Digital Jedi]

And to add to that, before I get to read anyone responses, I find this answer completely satisfactory. It doesn't bother me one way or the other to consider the card "just destroyed".

And to respond to Tkwigets post, the key words here are "as if" it never happend. Not that it actually didn't happen. The use of the words "as if" mean that the event is undone, but that there are still issues that need to be addressed since it did. Issue that are determined, albiet loosely, by the game designers. Like I said before, the card dosn't return to your hand. it's simply destroyed.

I once had so much fun it was "as if" I went to Disney World. That doesn't mean I actually went to Disney World.

 

[krazykidpsx]

dude, im telling you, its the red zone that is all.

its an area we should have had since the beggining to know were the heck our cards will be on the chain.

remember way back when people would just toss gracefull charity into the graveyard and do the effect? then the judges and everybody started to tell us to leave it on the field till it finished resolving.


well the monster go through the same thing before they are summoned.

which we should get use to by now but since it looks like a minority runs solem / horn / Royal Oppression (this works like the other but for special summons)

then nobody tends to care and then someday someone plays one of these and your like woah, what the, can he, i dont know, etc.. etc..

see thats the problem.

and why we tend to have these kind of discussions.

the summon gets negated not your 1 turn summon.

remember, a player is allowed only 1 normal summon per turn.

if a summon is negated, only the summon is negated not your chance to summon a monster.

with the ovious exception of a player having Ultimate Offerings of course.

now a player is allowed multiple specials summons. so everytime they special summon if it gets negated then only that summon got negated, you still have more to fall back on.

which is the difference with normal summon while you dont have an Ultimate Offerings activate on your side of the field.

 

[anthonyj]

Actually the flip summon ruling is more analogous to driving to the store, going in and doing your shopping, then when you get to the checkout your debit card is declined (attempt to flip summon and it gets negated) and thus you never went to the store.

It really doesn't make any sense, Sangan was set on the field any other card effect that put it into the graveyard would have recognized this and you would have received it's effect (tribute him, Mystik Wok, Raigeki Break, Raigeki, Dark Hole, Deck Devastation Virus.

If Sangan was normal summoned he was "technically" halted before arriving "on the field". Since a summons does not have a spell speed it is incorrect to describe it as the monster not having resolved onto the field yet, but that in essence is the principle. You declare the summon, pay any costs, make any tributes, and at this point the window is open for Horn of Heaven or Solemn Judgment (or Royal Oppression if it is a special summon like Dark Necrofear). The summon is negated and the monster is destroyed. I'd actually like to hear an answer to the question on Night Assailant vs. Horn of Heaven because logically if the monster is not "on the field" yet, then it would have to be considered still in hand. Electric Snake has stricter requirements (it wouldn't be a discard) so that ruling doesn't clarify this.

Flip summoning Sangan is certainly a BKSS of the highest order. If that is how they want it to work then I guess it works that way. But it does make me more curious about where is the flip summoned monster supposed to have been before the summon as well as in the Night Assailant vs. Horn of Heaven question would Night Assailant be considered to have been sent from in hand to the grave?

 

[novastar]

"The game" doen't consider it on the field". SO you don't get any "field to grave" or "summon" associated effects. "The game" doesn't consider it to be in my hand either. And this seems to be a point of contention and confusion among people.

The card is on the field, but the card has not been resolved to the field as of yet... it becomes an unsuccessful summon attempt, which is why you dont get to Normal Summon again.

The card text is not specific or clear enough in YGO, but the rulings give us enough to work with the understand that the "card" must be resolved to the field (as a proper Monster object) and then sent to the Graveyard in order for this effect to work.

Now, on the Flip Summon issue, i totally agree, there is definately a case there for the effect to still work.

The only explaination that I could offer would be that Flip Summoning in a sense, creates a "new" monster on the field, and resets the fact that the monster was already on the field while face-down. In that respect, it is treated the same way as if it were summoned from hand, and if that is negated, so is the effect and the presence of the monster on the field...

Just my thoughts

 

[krazykidpsx]

a set is not a summon.

a set creature is just a blank card with no status or effect or anything. its just like placing a dead card on the field.

it doenst mean that a monster isnt on the field. there is a monster, its just not recognizable by the game.

only the player that set it knows what it is. nobody else knows, they can take wild guesses but that is just shooting in the dark.

okay why is it that Mystic Swordsman LV2 has a nifty effect and why does MSLV6's effect have an even better effect.

now check this out, if you use the same effect as MSLv2 for Lv6 and send the creature to the graveyard then you get to see what it is, BUT if you send it back on top of its owner deck then you arnt allowed to know since the card got sent while face down.

basically just moving blank cards around thats all.

nobleman destroys and removes from play a set card.
D. D. Trap Hole same thing

and so forth and so forth.

its really easy to comprehend and we could stay here making Mountains out of molehills i dont have much to do till my friend Art comes over. so i could care less. lol

 

[krazykidpsx]

The card is on the field, but the card has not been resolved to the field as of yet...

The card text is not specific or clear enough in YGO, but the rulings give us enough to work with the understand that the "card" must be resolved to the field (as a proper Monster object) and then sent to the Graveyard in order for this effect to work.

Now, on the Flip Summon issue, i totally agree, there is definately a case there for the effect to still work.

The only explaination that I could offer would be that Flip Summoning in a sense, creates a "new" monster on the field, and resets the fact that the monster was already on the field while face-down. In that respect, it is treated the same way as if it were summoned from hand, and If that is negated, so is the effect and the presence of the monster on the field...

Just my thoughts

Im officially out of this thread.

anytime novastar shows up i leave. lol

no offense to him, but it just has to happen.

im never right when hes around. lol

or when D_X is around, or when alot of people are.

okay, i give up im never right lol