I've tried to agree, but...

[Dr Sin]

I was thinking about Sangan and when his summon is negated via Horn of Heaven or Solemn Judgement. I searched in the forums, read the last discussion, I know the official rule says his effect is negated, but I still couldn' t "buy it".
Why his effect is negated if I summon him and the opponent "HoH, SJ"s him? Where is he at this moment and how is it possible to him not be in the hand or on the field? Is he in the already discussed "different dimension", "nowhere land", "limbo zone" etc?
I know the rule and I can just accept it, but if I could have some more reasons to believe it, it would be great.
Also, in the end, what statement about when Sangan is already face-down on the field, is flip-summoned and negated is accepted right now? In this case, his effect works or not?

Thanks in advande, sorry for my poor English and to be asking it again.

 

[daivahataka]

Because his summon was negated it's treated as though he never reached the field, if he wasn't sent from the field to the graveyard then he doesn't get his effect. If flip summoned this would still apply as when a monster card is face down it's just a card so the game doesn't know that Sangan was face down on the field only that it was never face up before going to the graveyard.

 

[Dr Sin]

Right, but where is he? Isn't the case to really create an "intermediate zone" in the game?
He never reached the field, and I can agree with that, but I still don't realize from where he is being send to graveyard.

 

[Tkwiget]

If you negate a Spell card when your Skilled Dark Magician is on the field, then Skilled Dark Magician doesn't gain a Spell Counter. It's as if that card was never played in the first place.

Same thing applies here. If the summoning was negated then it's like the monster was never summoned to begin with. Sangan is going from the field to the Graveyard, but when a summoning is negated it's like that summoning NEVER happened.

 

[masterwoo0]

Basically, if the summon of Sangan is negated by Horn of Heaven or Solemn Judgment, then it basically is the same as going from Hand to Graveyard since the last place it was known to exist was your hand unless it was summoned from the deck using Mystic Tomato, and in that case, you can't activate Solemn Judgment in the Damage Step.

 

[Jason_C]

So are you saying that activating Solemn Judgment against Night Assailant probably is not the best idea?
-pssvr

 

[Tkwiget]

Last time I checked you could activate Counter Trap cards in the Damage Step. =/

Because on the UDE site under Basic Gameplay they say you can activate Counter Trap cards to negate the correct card (use CTRL + F and type in Damage Step and search it that way).

 

[masterwoo0]

That is a curious position there, but I would say that once a monster is set on the field, a Flip Summon is not the same as a Normal Summon, and the monster still went from the field to the Graveyard, in my opinion.

A Normal Summon is basically from your hand to the field, so a Solemn Judgment at that point is the same as sending from hand to Graveyard, again my opinion, so Night Assailant would be sent to the Graveyard by an effect, and since it never hit the field, it should get the effect of returning a Flip-type Effect monster to hand.

 

[Tkwiget]

Umm, you're missing one key word in Night Assailant's text. "directly" and summoning Night Assailant and getting that summon negated doesn't mean it the card will activate.

If a Flip Summon was negated it's like the monster was never flip summoned. =/ Blah, this is annoying.

 

[Jason_C]

If I activate a Magic card and it is negated, have I still activated it? No. Same with the summon. As masterwoo0 said, it nevers left the hand, because the summon was negated.
-pssvr

 

[daivahataka]

You can use Solemn Judgement in the damage step but you can't use it against monsters summoned by another monster's effect (one's that summon a different monster) as Solemn Judgement/HoH would need to negate the effect, which they can't, or else interrupt the resolution of the effect (so as to directly negate the summon), and as we all know you can't interrupt the resolution of an effect.
As for the Night Assailant issue, has it existed anywhere but the hand if it's trip to the field was negated? No, so it is direct from the hand to the graveyard.

 

[anthonyj]

Damage Step isn't the problem with the Solemn Judgment scenario. It is simply the wrong Counter Trap. Yes, Counter Traps can be activated in the Damage Step. But it would need to be Divine Wrath to negate the effect of Mystic Tomato.

 

[John Danker]

There are a great many people who have wondered and debated about this topic....and it's never really been justified to anyone's satisfaction that I know of. <shrug> It would imply that a set monster is considered to have never been "On the field" until it's flip summoned successfully. I don't buy it either but I have to go by the rules.

 

[Tkwiget]

Yeah I know what you mean John, I don't understand the mechanics behind how Night Assailant activates if its summoning was negated. I've always thought with my reference of something that never happened was vague, it would be more clear if I would have said from the beginning that negate to me means that it undoes something or cancels something out.

But I don't think I'll ever fully grasp what it means. =/

 

[masterwoo0]

It would imply that a set monster is considered to have never been "On the field" until it's flip summoned successfully. I don't buy it either but I have to go by the rules.

But we know that when "Dark Hole" is played, for instance, that if either Sangan, Witch of the Black Forest (or both) are present face-down on the field, key word being "on the field", they still get the effect, having never been summoned, as they were sent from the field to the Graveyard, as well as if they were both absorbed face-down by Relinquished or Thousand-Eyes Restrict.

 

[John Danker]

<nodding> Oh I know, as I said, I find this a hard pill to swallow. I can't see any mechanics that support the ruling.

 

[Absird]

Night Assailants effect doesn't trigger. It isn't sent from the hand to the graveyard. If it's summon is negated then it's sent from the field to the graveyard. Think about Vampire Lord and Pheonix

 

[Jason_C]

How can it be sent from the field to the grave if it never went to the field? METAPHOR TIME!
If I line in NC, and I go to MA, but I actually DON'T go to MA, and then I go to TX, have I gone straight from NC to TX? Yes.
-pssvr

 

[skey23]

Basically, if the summon of Sangan is negated by Horn of Heaven or Solemn Judgment, then it basically is the same as going from Hand to Graveyard since the last place it was known to exist was your hand unless it was summoned from the deck using Mystic Tomato, and in that case, you can't activate Solemn Judgment in the Damage Step.

Ok, I have a problem with this statement. The rulings tell us otherwise here.

If the summoning of "Electric Snake" is negated by "Solemn Judgment", etc. its effect is not activated, as it is not considered to have gone directly from your hand to the Graveyard.

This is what brought about the whole 'limbo' area since the card is not considered to be on the field, nor is it considered to be in the hand.

Just thought I'd point this out.

 

[masterwoo0]

Hmmmm... Now if I remember correctly, the word "Discarded" seemed to be a tricky statement in one of our previous threads. Soooo, wouldn't Electric Snake be looking for itself to be "Discarded" by a card effect instead of simply being negated and destroyed??

And, if anything, it seems to prove my earlier statement that Discard and Send are one and the same, since the real issue here is that it "wasnt" discarded, so why would it get the effect, irregardless of Solemn Judgment???