Level Modulation VS. Level UP!

[krazykidpsx]

okay, seriously since I saw that Level Modulations ruling consisted of only reborning stuff that was "Properly" Lv Summoned, it got me thinking. UDE MAKES ALOT OF SHADI RULINGS!!!!! but enough of that, today im bringing the evidence for me to belive why said ruling should be appealed.

First lets study Level Modulation:

Level Modulation[/ycard]]
Your opponent draws 2 cards. Special Summon 1 monster from your Graveyard that includes "LV" in its card name, ignoring the Summoning conditions. The monster that was Special Summoned by this effect cannot attack, nor activate or apply its effect this turn.

OKay the first sentence is preaty basic, the opponent draws 2 cards. I belive nobody is subject to not aggre with me that its basically "Opponent you draw 2 cards from your deck" basic, easy thats kool.

the next sence though is the one that gets to me.

"Special Summon 1 monster from your Graveyard that includes "LV" in its card name, Ignoring the Summoning Conditions."

that seems basic, I pick a monster that has LV in its card name from MY graveyard and special summon it to the field ignoring all its summoning conditions. Seems easy right? I pick I summon creature comes in with no restrictions other than the ones this card will place on it.

the next sentence is preaty easy.
"The monster that was Special Summoned by this effect cannot attack, nor activate or apply its effect this turn."

okay, so for this turn that i summon said creature through this card cant do anything, period no its and or buts about it. Of course this is while its face up currently. But its not bad its only non active for my turn, no biggy.

Now lets analize Level Up!

Level Up![/ycard]]
Send 1 face-up monster on your side of the field that has "LV" in its card name to the Graveyard to activate this card. Special Summon the monster that is written in the card text of that monster from your hand or Deck, ignoring the Summoning conditions.

Hmm, lets see here..."Send 1 Face-Up Monster on your side of the field that has "LV" in its card name to the graveyard to active this card."

Okay that seems interesting i can only send Face-Up Monsters with "LV" in its card name to the graveyard as a cost to activate this card. That doesnt seem to hard right? were smart we get it ONLY that type can be used.

Next sentence... " Special Summon the Monster that is Written in the card text of that monster from your hand or deck, Ignoring the Summoning Condition."

HEY! there is that line again "Ignoring the summoning Condition." But lets not get ahead of our selfs, it says "Special summon said monster that is written on the card text of the card you used to activate the card from your hand or deck"... That seems preaty easy, i send Horus Lv 6 to get HOrus 8 from my hand or deck since its the card written on the card HOrus LV 6. preaty easy so far, but hold on, Im not allowed to do that without the next line of text "IGNORING THE SUMMONING CONDITION"

the part I want to compare is the "Ignoring the summoning Condition" both cards state the same thing. But the difference is that one comes from the graveyard and the other from the hand or deck.

now, if we were to add the word "Graveyard" in the card Level Up! wouldnt the card do about the exact same thing that Level Modulation would? would there be a difference then?

See I'm a very reasonable person I can listen to reason, it wont affect me, I do as I am told BUT (yes, I know i over used the 3 letters) why is it that in 1 card you can do said effect and with another you can't?

Sit back and think for a bit before you reply instantly. The cards have the exact same 4 words in them near the end of the rules text. But both interact differently.

another thing I want to come to understand is why, do somecards you only do the effect as much as you possibly can, example of this would be Toon Table of Content, You can use it to look for a card with Toon but not neceserally need to place it in your hand or find it. BUT with card like Triangle ecstacy Spark were you dont neceserally need a Harpy lady sisters the ruling stands that you cannot activate it unless HLS is on the field.

If its a "Cause we said so and your stupid" kinda thing then its fine. Ill understand...(no really I will, I just personally belive that sending people on wild goose chace's is not funny)

 

[BenjaminMS]

<shrugs again and yawns..>

*drops a bottle of sleeping gas*
*Tkwiget falls in a long, silent sleep*

 

[masterwoo0]

Exactly. Can you imagine people using Exiled Force vs Stumbling and Torrential Tribute?

I see a lot of people playing badly, and not because they are bad players, just that they dont have the benefit of proper education on card interactions, as well as priority.

 

[BenjaminMS]

Exactly. Can you imagine people using Exiled Force vs Stumbling and Torrential Tribute?

I see a lot of people playing badly, and not because they are bad players, just that they dont have the benefit of proper education on card interactions, as well as priority.

True... most times because of that very reason..
Sometimes just because they refuse to take true words from others *shrughs in disbelief*

 

[krazykidpsx]

here ill make it easy for your self.

If Horus 8 were to work similar to Dark Necrofear then yea first summon properly then the first line of the card errases.

but then wouldnt that make Horus 8 reborn through premature, call, etc...?

now that leaves a question mark, is it nomi yes or no? if yes then Level Modulation will ignore its summoning conditions becuase it is part of the card that you are ignoring a complete line of text. If its no, then why make Level Modulation? to have 5 reborn cards in your deck for LV monsters?

whats worse 3 or 5?

 

[Tiso]

You are missing the important point though Twig and that is that both cards, Level Up! and Level Modulation have the same text. To say 1 card will always ignore summoning conditions and the other with the exact same text does not is irresponsible. It should not matter if Horus LV8 was summoned before or not if the card says ignore what it needs to be summoned.

 

[Tkwiget]

You are missing the important point though Twig and that is that both cards, Level Up! and Level Modulation have the same text. To say 1 card will always ignore summoning conditions and the other with the exact same text does not is irresponsible. It should not matter if Horus LV8 was summoned before or not if the card says ignore what it needs to be summoned.

Level Modulation
Your opponent draws 2 cards. Special Summon 1 monster from your Graveyard that includes "LV" in its card name, ignoring the Summoning conditions. The monster that was Special Summoned by this effect cannot attack, nor activate or apply its effect this turn.

Level Up!
Send 1 face-up monster on your side of the field that has "LV" in its card name to the Graveyard to activate this card. Special Summon the monster that is written in the card text of that monster from your hand or Deck, ignoring the Summoning conditions.


They don't have the same effect. I don't really understand what you're getting at. Level Modulation's "ignoring the Summoning conditions." part is the line of text in those LV monsters that have the word "except" in it. That's what it's directed towards.

 

[Tiso]

Level Modulation
Your opponent draws 2 cards. Special Summon 1 monster from your Graveyard that includes "LV" in its card name, ignoring the Summoning conditions. The monster that was Special Summoned by this effect cannot attack, nor activate or apply its effect this turn.

Level Up!
Send 1 face-up monster on your side of the field that has "LV" in its card name to the Graveyard to activate this card. Special Summon the monster that is written in the card text of that monster from your hand or Deck, ignoring the Summoning conditions.


They don't have the same effect. I don't really understand what you're getting at. Level Modulation's "ignoring the Summoning conditions." part is the line of text in those LV monsters that have the word "except" in it. That's what it's directed towards.

I said they have the same text, not effect. If you cannot see the problem by reading both cards then I cannot further explain it. It is obvious what the problem is.

 

[anthonyj]

I understand your frustration and feel nearly all of us share the exasperation that Konami/UDE could and should be doing more to issue cards with clear text so as not to need a Mountain of rulings in order to correctly play the game.

That said the simple truth is that this game is not, and shall not be that. There are thousands of card rulings for the very reason that they do not intend to correctly and easily define the game based solely on card text. What we are left with is simply this: A) Once a card is issued there will be rulings to clarify how a specific effect operates, B) If there is not a specific ruling you should use the effect as stated in the card and cross-reference that with any rulings for similar cards (though you can't 100% ensure that similar cards rulings will be valid for this card), and C) If you do not agree with a ruling it is theoretically possible there was an error in passing the information along to UDE from Konami and if that is the case the ruling may or may not get corrected at some point in the future (though it could just be left posted for years without anybody correcting it).

All of that being understood if we get a ruling for a card such as Level Modulation and that ruling matches the OCG ruling for the card, however much we may not like it, the chances that ranting and raving about it are going to change the ruling are absolutely positively nill. This is how the card was intended to be played. I myself questioned the Level Modulation ruling as did a number of others when it first came down because it doesn't logically follow the wording on the card. However once it was confirmed it was also that way in the OCG it became a moot point. That is the effect, take it or leave it.

 

[Raijinili]

It was also brought up that "ignore summoning conditions" doesn't mean "ignore special-summon-only monster rules".

 

[Tiso]

It was also brought up that "ignore summoning conditions" doesn't mean "ignore special-summon-only monster rules".

You are grasping at straws now. Level Up! does what? It forces the Special Summon of a NOMI monster, like Level Up! Horus LV6 to Horus LV8. You are doing the same thing from Level Modulation, except from the Graveyard. There is no difference. The fact the monster has to be properly summoned in the first place is BS when it states ignore summoning conditions. Look you can try to fandango any explaination, any loop hole you want about it, but at the end of day you cannot just make an exception to text with similar wording, no exact wording but different effects.

 

[anthonyj]

Look you can try to fandango any explaination, any loop hole you want about it, but at the end of day you cannot just make an exception to text with similar wording, no exact wording but different effects.

In point of fact Konami can, and did! Wording is secondary to intent in Yugioh. Kazuki Takahashi has in his mind what the card will do and that is what it does. If he declares that Monster Reborn can only be activated on Wednesdays that will be the new Tournament Rules for the game. It is his game and he will do with it as he pleases. There are a few cards we still don't know for certain what his will is and what they ultimately can do (Last Will being a prime example). Level Modulation is not on that list. It is clearly stated that is how it works, it has not wavered from that definition since it was released in Japan and that is how the card operates. I'm sorry it isn't the card you want it to be.

 

[Raijinili]

You are grasping at straws now.

And you, sir, are belittling a person's argument, and belittling a person, to prove your point.

I think that's much worse for a forum attempting to breed mutual respect.

Past posts will show that before I grasp at straws, I make up facts.

Level Up! does what? It forces the Special Summon of a NOMI monster, like Level Up! Horus LV6 to Horus LV8. You are doing the same thing from Level Modulation, except from the Graveyard. There is no difference.

Oh, but there is.

Where on any card text does it say that a Special Summon-only monster can't be revived unless properly summoned? If it's not printed, then it must be a rule rather than an effect.

There's a difference between rule and effect.

 

[chaosruler]

Alright, again, keep the language calm. If you have a point to make, make it, don't attack/belittle the other person, even though this thread hasn't made it there yet, it could get there quickly, so don't let it. This one isn't getting locked yet.

-John

 

[skey23]

I'm coming in late with this..I apologize!

We all know that before "Level Up!" and "Level Modulation" NOMI monsters could only be Special Summoned in the manner outlined in their card text.

We also hopefully all know that the 'Special Summon Only' monsters like "BLS - EotB" and "Fenrir" CANNOT be brought back from the Graveyard or RFP if they weren't Special Summoned properly to begin with.

"Level Up!" allows you so Special Summon the NOMI LV monsters from the Hand or Deck, NOT from the Graveyard. (We all hopefully know and understand this.)
"Level Modulation" is attempting to fill that Graveyard gap, and basically makes the NOMI LV monsters 'Special Summon Only' monsters now in order to fill that gap.

Does that make sense?

 

[masterwoo0]

But that's not what the text of Level Modulation states.

It says select a "LV" monsters from your Gravyard. I dont see where it stipulates anything about only being able to summon the uppermost level.

You should be able to summon all the level's, to include the ones that normally would only be able to be summoned by conditional effect.

 

[skey23]

But that's not what the text of Level Modulation states.

It says select a "LV" monsters from your Gravyard. I dont see where it stipulates anything about only being able to summon the uppermost level.

You should be able to summon all the level's, to include the ones that normally would only be able to be summoned by conditional effect.

Ok, either I mis-spoke, or you mis-understood...lol. I wasn't trying to explain the ENTIRE function of "Level Modulation". I was only trying to explain the specific interaction with the NOMI LV monsters.

If I discard "Armed Dragon LV5" to activate "Magic Jammer", I can certainly use "Level Modulation" to Special Summon that same "Armed Dragon LV5" from the Graveyard because it's a normal summonable tribute monster.

BTW..I agree that based off just the text of "Level Modulation" you 'should' be able to bring back a NOMI LV monster from the Graveyard no matter what. And yes, the fact the exact same phrase exists in both "Level Up!" and "Level Modulation" yet one has a restriction doesn't make any sense to me either.

 

[Tiso]

But that's not what the text of Level Modulation states.

It says select a "LV" monsters from your Gravyard. I dont see where it stipulates anything about only being able to summon the uppermost level.

You should be able to summon all the level's, to include the ones that normally would only be able to be summoned by conditional effect.

It should, but does not due to a nonsense ruling Konami put in place so the card would not get abused. Maybe if they, I dunno, kept it as a Trap Card and made it do what it says then I would have no problem with it. However, the only reason this ruling even exists without any explaination as why is because it prevents Konami letting cards get abused. Who here thought when the OCG first announced it that you could dump the upcoming Silent Magician LV8 into the Graveyard and use it.

 

[Raijinili]

It should, but does not due to a nonsense ruling Konami put in place so the card would not get abused.

Whether the ruling is nonsense or not is a statement that does not need to be made.

If you think it's nonsense, do it through proof, not through a simple stating of such an opinion/fact.

 

[krazykidpsx]

there is no "Ignoringing" on either of the cards, both of them have the same thing.

i understand when one sayd, Discard over send over alot of other stuff. they are different words, same action different words defining different ways of doing said action. but in this case.

its like stating. "Discard 1 card from your hand to destroy all monsters on the field" Over "Discard 1 card from your hand to destroy all face up monsters"

they both do an effect of destroying an activation of discarding. but in the end one destroys all and the other all face-up.

but then lets make up a shady ruling for the first one to state, that it destroys all monsters when there are an equal number of monsters face up or face down.

then wouldnt that leave you with a questions with? "what the heck were you guys on when you decided to release such ruling?"


the same thing is happening, most of the people that agree to the ruling have just simply accepted and dont wish to fight it. What would happen if we send this over to the Judge's list.

simple answer, Mr. Schultz will do what he usually does, and bold capitalize the rule for Level Modulation with out answering anything on what we stated.

Not a stupid question. But a sure stupid answer.

I'm checking over the rules that are at Dmcomet.net's website and I noticed a big incorrectness as well in the rulings.

EEN-JP039 Level Tuning
- The "ignore" include the text "this card can only be special summon by [XXXX]'s effect"
- Monsters like [Horus LV8] or [Hane Kuriboh LV10] cannot be special summon by this card's
effect if they had not been probably summoned before

I Understand that their rulings arnt per se "Official" but that opens up a big "what the heck??"

 

[anthonyj]

It should, but does not due to a nonsense ruling Konami put in place so the card would not get abused. Maybe if they, I dunno, kept it as a Trap Card and made it do what it says then I would have no problem with it. However, the only reason this ruling even exists without any explaination as why is because it prevents Konami letting cards get abused. Who here thought when the OCG first announced it that you could dump the upcoming Silent Magician LV8 into the Graveyard and use it.

If you do a search through prior threads we indeed looked forward to major broken potential with Level Modulation (though it was referred to by a different name before the English release). Horus LV8 would have become monstrously abused and of course Silent Magician LV8 (already abusable with Level Up!) would become further abused. The ruling of course put those ideas to rest, the potential for this strategy has certainly been stifled some but the LV monsters really would be a nightmare if Level Modulation had been left as a free summon with no restrictions whatsoever and in triplicate to boot. The rulings leave things at a more level playing field. I should think Konami should be applauded for not breaking the game in yet another direction instead of villafied for not giving us yet another overpowered card to skew the game.

Honestly if you want to play a card how you think it should be in casual duels at your kitchen table nothing is stopping you. I know my sons really like playing with god cards, and my son still likes to play Fairy King Truesdale once in a while the way it was printed instead of the useless card it actually is. But rants about how you think cards should have been or cards you'd like to see belong more in the General Discussion area. This is not a ruling in question. It is a ruling you dislike.