Level Modulation

Twiget, that wouldn't deck out the opponent, they would be unable to draw the next time they needed to.

pssvr, like I said ignoring the summoning conditions, special summon only monsters have summoning conditions that is what must be fulfilled before they can be special summoned. If you are specifically ignoring those why are you requiring them? It should have been worded differently to avoid this confusion. But the list of cards that that statement applies to is horrendous.

If that is how they want it done I'll do it that way. But when some Japanese player at Worlds yanks Horus LV8 out of the graveyard and looks at the U.S. player he is about to trounce like he's crazy when he claims it can't be brought out because it wasn't properly summoned first, I guarantee this needs to be the same for both games or this will come up and haunt UDE. In fact I'd be surprised if the U.S. player didn't jump up and throttle Kevin on the spot.
 
But I'm pretty sure by ignoring the conditions it just means the conditions on the cards, not the game mechanics. The conditions on the cards say it has to be summoned by such-and-such, while the game mechanic says it cannot be resurrected if not summoned properly first.

-pssvr
 
pssvr said:
But I'm pretty sure by ignoring the conditions it just means the conditions on the cards, not the game mechanics. The conditions on the cards say it has to be summoned by such-and-such, while the game mechanic says it cannot be resurrected if not summoned properly first.

-pssvr

The game mechanic that says it cannot be resurrected if not summoned properly first are referring to the summoning condition on the card.

Can a Blue Eyes White Dragon that was discarded to the graveyard be special summoned with Monster Reborn? Even if he hadn't been summoned to the field previously? Then the reason that Dark Necrofear can't is because of what?


















That's right the summoning condition on the card. Trumpets sound, big appluase. So if you are ignoring the summoning condition on the card because that is what the card tells you to do, then you still have to make sure that the summoning condition was fulfilled before it went to the grave because the game mechanic says that you can't unless it already fulfilled the summoning condition, but the summoning condition is being ignored so you can summon it, but it won't let the monster be summoned unless it was fulfilled, see what I mean?
 
Like I said, it is a stupid ruling and will only further confuse players. However, if the card was written with the text "for a monster that was properly Summoned" or something like that, we will have another headache that you cannot simply dump a LV6 Horus in order to bring it back given it had to hit the field first to do so. So in the end, we have to take a card with a clearly stupid ruling, although apparently Level Up! does the exact same thing can clearly ignore it fine. Sigh..
 
Anthony: Well, can't you make the argument that those summoning conditions from hand/deck are effects on the card, while the resurrection thingy is a game mechanic? Yes, you can. Why? Read Dark Necrofear's text very closely. Nowhere on the card does it say you can summon it with Monster Reborn, it specifically says you can only summon it one way. Yet once it is properly summoned, what's on the card gets replaced by "This card is treated as having no summoning conditions". Why? Game mechanic.

-pssvr
 
You can certainly make that argument but the thing that prevents Dark Necrofear from being special summoned by Monster Reborn if not properly summoned first is by definition the summoning condition on the card. The game mechanic exists due to the summoning condition. Thus ignoring it for 1 thing but not the other is quite vague and likely to cause headaches. Wouldn't you agree?
 
Ok, you've got me there. I guess you are absolutely right. But would you agree that there IS a game mechanic that enables you to reborn a special summon only monster?

-pssvr
 
You guys are gonna hate me, but...
pssvr said:
But would you agree that there IS a game mechanic that enables you to reborn a special summon only monster?
I wouldn't call it a 'game mechanic'. Let's look at a few things here..

"Blue-Eyes White Dragon" can, in most cases, 'only' be Normal Summoned or Set by offering two tributes, correct? So why then, can I dump him and then reborn him w/o having 'properly' Summoned him correctly? Because the reborn is a Special Summon, and monsters like "BEWD" don't have Special Summon restrictions on them.

Let's look at "Chaos Sorcerer". This card can ONLY be Special Summoned by removing 1 Light and 1 Dark from the Graveyard. Seems pretty simple. One would immediately think from that text that this monster would NOT be able to be reborn from the Graveyard because of it's Special Summon restriction. But wait! Why can't I Normal Summon or Set this monster? It doesn't say it can't be Normal Summoned or Set, so why can't I just offer a monster as a Tribute to Normal Summon this card? Short answer, BKSS. The same reason this monster CAN be reborn from the Graveyard IF it was properly Special Summoned to begin with, despite the fact it's text CLEARLY states it can ONLY be Special Summoned ONE way.

Now let's look at "Horus LV8". This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special Summoned EXCEPT by the effect of "Horus LV6". Wow, we have new restrictive text. We now know that this monster CANNOT be Normal Summoned or Set. Well, that's good to know. We can also assume that this monster cannot be reborn from the Graveyard, just like "Chaos Sorcerer", but wait, "Chaos Sorcerer" can, so why can't "Horus LV8"? Well, they've changed the word 'only' to 'except'. So this REALLY means it can ONLY be Special Summoned that way, no REALLY, that's what it means..this time...we swear. Oh wait, we forgot about "Level Up!". So it can be Special Summoned by "Level Up!", but it can't be reborn from the Graveyard, no REALLY it can't, we swear. Oh wait, we forgot about "Level Modulation", but you have to Special Summon it properly 1st. Why? BKSS. So, now it can be Special Summoned w/o the effect of "Horus LV6", and it can be brought back from the Graveyard, so now, the only way to stop this guy is to remove it from play...oh wait, we forgot about....(I can just see it now)!

Do you get what I'm saying. BKSS. If they were gonna make the LV 'NOMI' monsters able to be Special Summoned via "Level Up!" and reborn-able via "Level Modulation", then they should have just made them Special Summon only monsters like "Chaos Sorcerer", IMHO.
 
Okay... I think we all know what the effect of Level Modulation does, and I think we all know what we really "want" it to do, which is the big difference.

All Level Modulation does is allow us to Special Summon a monster from the Graveyard that cannot otherwise be done so once he ends up there after, yes I said "AFTER", being properly summoned by either Level Up! or by the effect of the Appropriate LV Monster.

If I Level Up! Silent Swordsman LV5 to bring out Silent Swordsman LV7, and he gets destroyed by Torrential Tribute, then, under normal circumstances, he would have to be returned to hand or deck and I'd have to go through the same process again to re-summon him.

Now, with Level Modulation, I can effectively summon that Level Monster from the Graveyard without using Level Up! or the lower level LV Monster's effect.

It's not that complex. When I saw the card for the first time, I thought the same thing. "Man, I can just toss my Silent Magician LV8 in the Graveyard and bring it out with Level Modulation and clean my opponents clock!!!" That's exactly what they are not going to let happen. You know as well as I do how entirely Broken that effect would be if not restricted to the current ruling.

I for one am more than pleased that it is not. I can just see everyone's deck loaded with 3x Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8's and doing everything possible to get him to the Graveyard and Royal Decree out on the field. Wouldnt have to worry about Exiled Force anymore because Horus LV8 can be reborn!!!

Come on guys, it's not shady at all. If anything, it's to keep a lot of people from quitting the game because it would be almost as bad as having Chaos back.
 
I was only questioning the ruling in relation to how things are being handled in OCG. This is largely because we always seem to get the explanation that the English text didn't translate well.

Next we'll be told that you can't summon Horus LV8 with Level Modulation if he was summoned by Level Up! before he went to the graveyard because he had to be summoned properly by Horus LV6. :)

Truly I do agree that putting some restrictions on a card that summons such powerful monsters is justified. I just want to ensure we don't have to flip flop on this because it isn't Konami saying so. (I'm sure there have been other powerful cards that UDE would have toned down if it were their call).
 
masterwoo0 said:
Okay... I think we all know what the effect of Level Modulation does, and I think we all know what we really "want" it to do, which is the big difference.

All Level Modulation does is allow us to Special Summon a monster from the Graveyard that cannot otherwise be done so once he ends up there after, yes I said "AFTER", being properly summoned by either Level Up! or by the effect of the Appropriate LV Monster.

If I Level Up! Silent Swordsman LV5 to bring out Silent Swordsman LV7, and he gets destroyed by Torrential Tribute, then, under normal circumstances, he would have to be returned to hand or deck and I'd have to go through the same process again to re-summon him.

Now, with Level Modulation, I can effectively summon that Level Monster from the Graveyard without using Level Up! or the lower level LV Monster's effect.

It's not that complex. When I saw the card for the first time, I thought the same thing. "Man, I can just toss my Silent Magician LV8 in the Graveyard and bring it out with Level Modulation and clean my opponents clock!!!" That's exactly what they are not going to let happen. You know as well as I do how entirely Broken that effect would be if not restricted to the current ruling.

I for one am more than pleased that it is not. I can just see everyone's deck loaded with 3x Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8's and doing everything possible to get him to the Graveyard and Royal Decree out on the field. Wouldnt have to worry about Exiled Force anymore because Horus LV8 can be reborn!!!

Come on guys, it's not shady at all. If anything, it's to keep a lot of people from quitting the game because it would be almost as bad as having Chaos back.
Correct, Masterwoo0. Te problem here is that we're looking to much at what we want the card to do, but we have a ruling thats reminding us of the games summoning mechanincs.

The examples about dumping a Blue-Eyes into the Graveyard are fine, but there is just one problem. There never has been a mechanic that prevented you from summoning a tribute monster of any star level from your Grave that hadn't been summoned yet. We're not talking about a regular high level tribute. I wonder if everyone realizes that we're not even talking about Special Summon Only monsters. We're talking about Nomis and Nomis exclusively.

Ignoring the summoning condition of a Nomi is one thing. But nowhere in the card text are we being given permission to ignore standard summoning mechanics. Level Modulation turns a Nomi monster into a Special Summon only monster. Thats all it does. Now that it's being treated like a Special Summon only monster we still have to look at the basic mechanics of summoning from the Grave and aplly them.
 
anthonyj said:
Twiget, that wouldn't deck out the opponent, they would be unable to draw the next time they needed to.

pssvr, like I said ignoring the summoning conditions, special summon only monsters have summoning conditions that is what must be fulfilled before they can be special summoned. If you are specifically ignoring those why are you requiring them? It should have been worded differently to avoid this confusion. But the list of cards that that statement applies to is horrendous.

If that is how they want it done I'll do it that way. But when some Japanese player at Worlds yanks Horus LV8 out of the graveyard and looks at the U.S. player he is about to trounce like he's crazy when he claims it can't be brought out because it wasn't properly summoned first, I guarantee this needs to be the same for both games or this will come up and haunt UDE. In fact I'd be surprised if the U.S. player didn't jump up and throttle Kevin on the spot.

Oh really, I'd like to give you a few examples that I've been going off of.

Dark Magic Attack requires Dark Magician on the field.
Thousand Knives requires Dark Magician on the field.
Needle Ceiling requires four or more monsters on the field to activate.

Get one I'm saying, this card only requires a dead minimum of two cards in the opponent's Deck. Needle Ceiling requires a dead minimum of four monsters total on the field. This is ONLY at activation.

But, then again, it's only my opinion and I doubt anyone cares about that. -_- Brain hurts too much to care...

<waves fist at everyone for getting all these mechanics stuck in his head all day long..>

EDTI: Oh btw, check Needle Ceiling's first ruling.
 
not neceserally true. the card has a specific way to summon from the hand, if you didnt meet the requirement then too bad, its eternaly lost right?

well then we got Monster Reincarnation to do it one more time, but we mest up because our opponent bused a solemn judgement.

what to do?

Level Modulation, no ware on the card it says that it had to be properly summoned the first time around and we know its not neceserally a summon from your hand, since you can get the creature from your graveyard.

also, The card has a 1 turn restriction placed on the card, It gets stripped of its effect for the whole turn.

what does that mean, that for 1 whole turn you cant use any of thouse creatures effects.

how is that not a restriction.

if the soldier or the dragon had that kind of restriction then you wouldnt see as much broken stuff going around.

no really sit back and think about it.
 
Again, if it were that simple to just make a card that ignores all summoning requirements, why didnt they do that much earlier with Chaos Dragon and Soldier, and for that matter, Dark Necrofear and Dark Ruler Ha Des????

You could really test the waters with those cards.

Again, I dont want it to change from the current ruling. It's bad enough having to worry enough about the newest Cockroaches on the block (Dark World Monsters), than to have to worry about another discard and return monster.
 
Tkwiget said:
Oh really, I'd like to give you a few examples that I've been going off of.

Dark Magic Attack requires Dark Magician on the field.
Thousand Knives requires Dark Magician on the field.
Needle Ceiling requires four or more monsters on the field to activate.

Get one I'm saying, this card only requires a dead minimum of two cards in the opponent's Deck. Needle Ceiling requires a dead minimum of four monsters total on the field. This is ONLY at activation.

But, then again, it's only my opinion and I doubt anyone cares about that. -_- Brain hurts too much to care...

<waves fist at everyone for getting all these mechanics stuck in his head all day long..>

EDTI: Oh btw, check Needle Ceiling's first ruling.

I apologize if I worded that poorly, by deck out I mean the player losing because they are unable to draw. Since the opponent will draw the two cards in the deck they technically won't lose until the next time they need to draw. Card Destruction can force the opponent to deck out when it resolves. This won't be able to do that. It requires there to be enough cards to handle the draw that it is creating.
 
Level Modulation's Effect said:
Your opponent draws 2 cards. Special Summon 1 monster from your Graveyard that includes "LV" in its card name, ignoring the Summoning conditions. The monster that was Special Summoned by this effect cannot attack, nor activate or apply its effect this turn.

Please read the text more carefully.

Level Modulation Ruling#2 said:
You cannot activate "Level Modulation" if the opponent has 1 or less card in their Deck, or if you have "Protector of the Sanctuary" on the field.

Please read that carefully.

Card Destruction has the ability to make the opponent exceed the amount of cards in their deck. At that point, they'd lose due to that winning/losing condiction.

Level Modulation however, if activated and the opponent has exactly 2 cards in their deck will not end the game. They aren't exceeding the deck limit. There for the game will not end right there and then. It isn't registering any winning/losing condiction, it isn't registering anything at all.

Then once you end your turn and your opponent enters their Draw Phase, the game registers that player has no cards left in their deck. Then the game ends, they lose.

So where's the confusion on that? Simple basic logic.

<laughs as this stuff reminds him too much of his math>

EDIT: Keep in mind, I haven't seen this Card Destruction ruling you've mentioned. Also, I'm tired and stressed out, just think of what caused it. lol

<stabs Priority with a hot butter knife and eats it up..>

Ok, I really need to proofread my own posts..

What you said about them losing with Card Destruction during their turn is correct. I left out that part this post. However, you can deck them out if they contain exactly 2 cards in their deck with Level Modulation.
 
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