Master Monk

masterwoo0

masterwoo0

NINJA4LIFE
I didnt think my question was that hard, but it only took about 4 to 5 months to answer....


Master Monk vs Book of Moon or Tsukuyomi 2006-03-30 15:59:00 <James Johnson>


1. Okay, Master Monk's effect allows him to attack twice in the same Battle Phase,
but not necessarily back to back, so he can attack, then let another monster
attack, and resume Battle himself.

That being said, if Master Monk attacks a monster, and after the Damage
Calculation is complete, my opponent activates Book of Moon to flip him
face-down, does this reset his effect if he is somehow flipped face-up in attack,
allowing him to again attack twice in the same Battle face, ignoring the fact
that he already attacked once,

or

Will he only be able to carry out his second attack, if he can still attack
at all?

2. Same scenario as above, only substitute attacking a face-down Tsukuyomi.

Thanks!

----------------------------------------------------

If you attack once (or twice), and then after the attack "Master Monk" is flipped-face down by "Tsukuyomi" or "Book of Moon",
you could activate "Desert Sunlight" then "Final Attack Orders" and attack 2 more times.

Dan Scheidegger
Jr. Game Designer
Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG R&D
Upper Deck Entertainment
 
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It's big alright!! I am hoping that novastar isnt saying that ALL monsters start back at zero when flip-flopped though....

That I don't agree with and would DEFINITELY have to see that proven as true.
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But there is no difference here, and yes i am saying that, why is it so difficult to accept?

If effects are reset, why not attack declarations?

Monk's effect does not give it "2 attacks" it gives him a second attack in addition to his normal 1 attack per-turn.
 
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novastar said:
Any monster would have its attack count reset from being flipped face-down, those particular ones would get 2 attacks because of their respective effects.
Click to expand...

I mean, the game does not reset a monsters ability to attack again if it has already attacked just because it was flipped face-down. A normal attack is not something you can reset unless the monster is removed from the field entirely.

Monk can have two attacks because his effect allows him to.

If a monster can have an attack declaration reset, then ALL monsters have an inherent effect that can be reset.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
I mean, the game does not reset a monsters ability to attack again if it has already attacked just because it was flipped face-down. A normal attack is not something you can reset unless the monster is removed from the field entirely.
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Don't know where you got that thinking from.

Flipping face-down, is for the most part, removing [said] monster from the field.

If a monster can have an attack declaration reset, then ALL monsters have an inherent effect that can be reset.
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In a sense yes, every monster is given "an attack token" so to speak for every turn.

In a weird sense, game rules are like global effects for all cards.

In the end, if what Dan said is correct (which i believe it is), then it also means that every monster has it attack declaration reset as well.

Im going to look into more before i continue.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
I mean, the game does not reset a monsters ability to attack again if it has already attacked just because it was flipped face-down. A normal attack is not something you can reset unless the monster is removed from the field entirely.
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It doesn't have to forget in order to attack again.

Remember "0" is also a whole number.

So a monster that hasn't declared an attack will not have a count at all, (and thus could still change its battle position)

But after a monster has been flipped face-down it's attack count will go to "0" and it will have already declared zero attacks, thus would not be able to manually change its position, afterwards. Yet would be still able to add an additional attack to bring its attack count to 1.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but i'm saying the same thing that i've been saying since the first reply: there are no answers yet.
 
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Back to sqaure one... It doesnt remove it from the field, because if it did, then you could flip summon a monster more than once per turn.

It wouldnt just reset attack declarations, it would reset ALL Game Mechanics.
 
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novastar said:
Don't know where you got that thinking from.


Flipping face-down, is for the most part, removing [said] monster from the field.

In a sense yes, every monster is given "an attack token" so to speak for every turn.

In a weird sense, game rules are like global effects for all cards.
Click to expand...

So, the game will keep track of the fact that the monster has attacked for purposes of whether it can be flip-summoned or not but it will forget that that monster has attacked if it has somehow been flipped face-up by Desert Sunlight?
 
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anthonyj said:
So, the game will keep track of the fact that the monster has attacked for purposes of whether it can be flip-summoned or not but it will forget that that monster has attacked if it has somehow been flipped face-up by Desert Sunlight?
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Now that doesnt make any sense at all.

Keep track, but "dont" keep track....
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Now that doesnt make any sense at all.

Keep track, but "dont" keep track....
Click to expand...

My head hurts. I thought I had this down cold and now I feel like the whole world has been turned inside out. :(

It truly doesn't make sense that all monsters would be able to attack again. That certainly isn't something that should have been able to sneak around without somebody mentioning it before now.

That is something in the realm of multiple chains in the Battle Phase big. New rules for changing attack position big.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
It doesn't have to forget in order to attack again.

Remember "0" is also a whole number.

So a monster that hasn't declared an attack will not have a count at all, (and thus could still change its battle position)

But after a monster has been flipped face-down it's attack count will go to "0" and it will have already declared zero attacks, thus would not be able to manually change its position, afterwards. Yet would be still able to add an additional attack to bring its attack count to 1.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but i'm saying the same thing that i've been saying since the first reply: there are no answers yet.
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Actually, i like to think of it more like they each have storage of attack tokens that they in a sense spend when declaring an attack. That is reissued if flipped down and up again.

If you used BoM and BoT on any monster, you should be able to attack again. Of course BoT is a Normal Spell, so we can't use it in the Battle Phase, but if we use DS and FAO it would work.

I see the Battle Position change arguement, however i feel that is more along the lines of the Normal Summon rule, and attack declarations are different.

Interesting
 
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anthonyj said:
My head hurts. I thought I had this down cold and now I feel like the whole world has been turned inside out. :(

It truly doesn't make sense that all monsters would be able to attack again. That certainly isn't something that should have been able to sneak around without somebody mentioning it before now.
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Exactly. I was only expecting Master Monk to get his effect reset, but if this is just a "Basic Concept" SOMEONE surely would have taken advantage of it long before this.

I refuse to believe that this has never been approached from that point of view.

And, I'd rather quit now while Pandora's Box is only slightly open, than to have people going to tournaments and using the additional info that has not been ruled outside of the Master Monk ruling, than to continue and end up reinventing the game.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Exactly. I was only expecting Master Monk to get his effect reset, but if this is just a "Basic Concept" SOMEONE surely would have taken advantage of it long before this.

I refuse to believe that this has never been approached from that point of view.
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Well, the setup it would take to make it work is way to cumbersome.
 
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novastar said:
Don't know where you got that thinking from.

Flipping face-down, is for the most part, removing [said] monster from the field.
Click to expand...

I don't really agree with this per-say, there is no "removing", leaving the field enables a completely new "once per turn attack"... (ie, Beast Soul Swap)
 
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novastar said:
Actually, i like to think of it more like they each have storage of attack tokens(tickets) that they in a sense spend when declaring an attack. That is reissued if flipped down and up again.
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Right, and no matter how many tickets are re-issued the fact would remain that the card still had spent at least one ticket for the purpose of position changes.

The cost his fairly high to flip flop monsters, so i doubt there's that much motivation to have taken advantage of it.

Although once the clarification comes i'm sure it would be good to know. (I'm thinking among the line of the rule in tennis That you can hit the ball around the net instead of over: you're not going to be planning on it happening, but if you ever get the opportunity, you should know that its there.)
 
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