Master Monk

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masterwoo0

NINJA4LIFE
I didnt think my question was that hard, but it only took about 4 to 5 months to answer....


Master Monk vs Book of Moon or Tsukuyomi 2006-03-30 15:59:00 <James Johnson>


1. Okay, Master Monk's effect allows him to attack twice in the same Battle Phase,
but not necessarily back to back, so he can attack, then let another monster
attack, and resume Battle himself.

That being said, if Master Monk attacks a monster, and after the Damage
Calculation is complete, my opponent activates Book of Moon to flip him
face-down, does this reset his effect if he is somehow flipped face-up in attack,
allowing him to again attack twice in the same Battle face, ignoring the fact
that he already attacked once,

or

Will he only be able to carry out his second attack, if he can still attack
at all?

2. Same scenario as above, only substitute attacking a face-down Tsukuyomi.

Thanks!

----------------------------------------------------

If you attack once (or twice), and then after the attack "Master Monk" is flipped-face down by "Tsukuyomi" or "Book of Moon",
you could activate "Desert Sunlight" then "Final Attack Orders" and attack 2 more times.

Dan Scheidegger
Jr. Game Designer
Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG R&D
Upper Deck Entertainment
 
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It's a continuous effect because you can't Divine Wrath it. Mataza the Zapper and Hayabusa Knight have different wording than Master Monk's Double Attacking effect, however, you can't Divine Wrath them now can you? Master Monk's attack effect isn't a trigger effect like Ruin, Queen of Oblivion, Tyrant Dragon, or Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning. A continuous effect yes, optional yes, trigger effect no.

Mataza the Zapper, Hayabusa Knight, and Master Monk are all continuous effects for their Double Attacking effects.
 
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This ruling can not and will not make sense as long as you are attempting to treat Master Monk as having an effect which gives him an additional attack. If the effect said, "This monster can make one additional, non-consecutive attack each turn" then flip-flopping him would give him one more attack because the game mechanic standard attack does not get reset when the monster is turned face-down.

Master Monk has an effect which is continuously overiding the standard game mechanic. I believe this same effect overides Hayabusa Knight, and Mataza the Zapper and a similar overide effect handles Asura Priest. The effect supercedes the ordinary attack and thus there is no "ordinary attack".

The wording for one of the rulings for Hayabusa and Mataza is: If "Hayabusa Knight" or "Mataza the Zapper" is selected with "Dark Spirit of the Silent" it only attacks once, but it may then attack twice per its own effect during the same Battle Phase.
 
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anthonyj said:
This ruling can not and will not make sense as long as you are attempting to treat Master Monk as having an effect which gives him an additional attack. If the effect said, "This monster can make one additional, non-consecutive attack each turn" then flip-flopping him would give him one more attack because the game mechanic standard attack does not get reset when the monster is turned face-down.
.
Click to expand...


Although the newest member of the Judge's List team says different. And I quote:
If you attack once (or twice), and then after the attack "Master Monk" is flipped-face down by "Tsukuyomi" or "Book of Moon",
you could activate "Desert Sunlight" then "Final Attack Orders" and attack 2 more times.

Dan Scheidegger
Jr. Game Designer
Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG R&D
Upper Deck Entertainment

See: http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=8887
 
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DarkLogicianOfCaos said:
Although the newest member of the Judge's List team says different. And I quote:
If you attack once (or twice), and then after the attack "Master Monk" is flipped-face down by "Tsukuyomi" or "Book of Moon",
you could activate "Desert Sunlight" then "Final Attack Orders" and attack 2 more times.

Dan Scheidegger
Jr. Game Designer
Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG R&D
Upper Deck Entertainment

See: http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=8887
Click to expand...
<ahem> Yeah, that's kinda what Anthony is saying. It's also the message that that is the first post of this thread. ;)
 
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Just because Dan said that doesn't mean it's correct.

The fact remains that every monster has at least one manual attack. Master Monk's effect is giving it another additional manual attack. It isn't connected to the first manual attack because if my opponent activates Draining Shield on the first attack, I can attack again the second time. Thus, eliminating whatever argument there is from that point of view.
 
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Going deeper and deeper into this topic, it seems that the simplest way to view this case would be that Master Monk's effect, is very similar to that of any ignition effect, you choose to activate it, if you manage to reset it, you can choose to activate it yet again.
 
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Tkwiget said:
Just because Dan said that doesn't mean it's correct.

The fact remains that every monster has at least one manual attack. Master Monk's effect is giving it another additional manual attack. It isn't connected to the first manual attack because if my opponent activates Draining Shield on the first attack, I can attack again the second time. Thus, eliminating whatever argument there is from that point of view.
Click to expand...
This really has no bearing on the debate.

This thread is only from a standpoint of "Master Monk" being flipped face-down, and face-up again. We already know that if he remains face-up, he can attack twice. At this point, anyone who doesnt realize that really must take a few days away from posting to read up on his effect.

With that said, Master Monk is summoned to the field with an effect that states that when he Battles, he can attack twice in the same turn.

It doesnt say, "In addition to his normal attack, Master Monk can attack once more in the same turn."

The part after "Nornal Attack" would then be the effect statement, if he only got one more attack, but that is not the case. His entire effect is that he CAN attack twice in the same turn.
 
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Actually it kinda does because there are card that allow monsters to attack twice. You can't increase the number of attacks Master Monk can attack during the same turn for manual attacks.

[Re: Twin Swords of Flashing Light - Tryce] If a monster that normally attacks twice like "Hayabusa Knight", "Gray Wing", or "Tyrant Dragon" is equipped with "Twin Swords of Flashing Light - Tryce", it doesn't get a third attack.

A ruling under Hayabusa Knight.

Master Monk's effect allows you to have two manual attacks with it. Which is why Dark Spirit of the Silent doesn't decrease its number of manual attacks.

So it does have importance in the discussion.

It's a continuous monster effect that allows that monster to have two manual attacks in the same turn. That's what it is.
 
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Tkwiget said:
Just because Dan said that doesn't mean it's correct.

The fact remains that every monster has at least one manual attack. Master Monk's effect is giving it another additional manual attack. It isn't connected to the first manual attack because if my opponent activates Draining Shield on the first attack, I can attack again the second time. Thus, eliminating whatever argument there is from that point of view.
Click to expand...

Fact 1: We know that the game keeps track of the "manual attack" that every standard monster gets. Right?

Fact 2: We know that a "manual attack" as you are referring to it does not get reset when a monster is flip-flopped. (or at least if it does it is something that really needed to be made public knowledge long before this stage in the game).

Fact 3: We know Effects do Reset when a flip-flop occurs.

Fact 4: Simply reading the effect as it is written states exactly what I keep trying to explain. The effect gives the monster 2 attacks. And as the ruling states, that is the number of attacks that he gets again after he has flip-flopped.


Conclusion 1: Dan is mistaken in his post (which keeping in mind this question was asked 5 or 6 months ago so I think it highly unlikely that this is a knee jerk post without consultation to the higher ups).

Conclusion 2: Anthony's explanation is in fact how this works.

If conclusion 1 is correct then we can't possibly close this matter until there is a retraction. I'll refer to the infamous Bait Doll thread as a good example of that scenario.

If you do not agree with either Conclusion #1 or Conclusion #2 please post a mechanics supported argument for how you believe Master Monk gets the ruling that he has.
 
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Tkwiget said:
Actually it kinda does because there are card that allow monsters to attack twice. You can't increase the number of attacks Master Monk can attack during the same turn for manual attacks.

[Re: Twin Swords of Flashing Light - Tryce] If a monster that normally attacks twice like "Hayabusa Knight", "Gray Wing", or "Tyrant Dragon" is equipped with "Twin Swords of Flashing Light - Tryce", it doesn't get a third attack.

A ruling under Hayabusa Knight.

Master Monk's effect allows you to have two manual attacks with it. Which is why Dark Spirit of the Silent doesn't decrease its number of manual attacks.

So it does have importance in the discussion.

It's a continuous monster effect that allows that monster to have two manual attacks in the same turn. That's what it is.
Click to expand...
So do you agree that once he has flip-flopped he again has two "manual attacks" to use?
 
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You're right about effects being reset. You're right about Master Monk's effect being reset in a flip-flop situation. You're right about his effect being able to be used again.

Manual attacks aren't just ones that are recorded. Master Monk's effect overrides the game mechanic with his effect. Manual attacks are monster attacks you declare. If the effect is reset then the player can declare manual attacks with that monster.

To answer your question. Yes, I agree. =)
 
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Ok I just though of something, that might be or might not be relevant to the current situation, i'll bring in Armed Samurai - Ben Kei, now this monster has a very peculiar text:
In addition to a normal attack, this card can attack during the same Battle Phase as many times as the number of Equip Cards equipped to this card.
Click to expand...

Now follow me if you will, let's say for the heck of it, that Armed Samurai - Ben Kei, was equipped with Mage Power, he attacked twice, was turned face-down and face-up again in attack, Collected Power was used to move 2 Axe of Despair equipped to another monster on the field, and moved to Armed Samurai - Ben Kei.

Would Armed Samurai - Ben Kei:

1. Attack 3 times?
2. Attack 2 times?
3. Not attack again?
 
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I would have to say no, Armed Samurai - Ben Kei wouldn't get to attack again. I'm probably wrong.

Every monster has at least one manual attack. If an effect allows it to have additional manual attacks during the same turn then it would. Since in your example Armed Samurai - Ben Kei would have no equips on him he would get any additional attacks.

The thing about Armed Samurai - Ben Kei's effect is that it's dependent upon the first manual attack and the number of equips on him. The normal attack is the first attack a monster has.

But like I said, I'm probably wrong.
 
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Tk, if you look closer, once Armed Samurai -Ben Kei, got flipped-flopped, Collected Power was used on him to equip him with 2 Axe of Despair, that with the given "in addition", another thing about it is that he doesn't necessarily need to attack in a row.

EDIT: sorry one of the sentences got erased from my previous post =P, I edited it.
 
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