Miracle Fusion & Fusion Subs
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chaosruler
New Member
Destroying either Vampire Lord or Sacred Phoenixes that are in the deck/hand via Chain Destruction makes perfect sense, since Chain Destruction says destroy. And they end up going to the Graveyard, where their effects trigger next Standby Phase. Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys/Vampire Lord will not activate when removed from play because both are required to activate in the Graveyard. Since the Removed from Play pile is not the Graveyard, you cannot recur Vampire Lord/SPoN from the RFP pile via their own effects. If you Smashing Ground a SPoN while Banisher of the Light is face-up, SpoN does not return, this is because regardless of being destroyed, Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys is not in the Graveyard where it triggers, it is in the RFP Pile.
-John
-John
chaosruler
New Member
I read this whole thread before posting. -_- Just because something is not explicitly stated does not mean it is not part of the card's effect. There are examples of this type of omission of common sense, but they escape me at the moment. When things are destroyed, their normal destination is the Graveyard, so it would be a waste of ink to say when this card is destroyed and sent to the Graveyard by a card effect, because that is just redundant.
I guess Konami will never learn. But if they do learn, judges like myself will be almost useless. x_x
-John
I guess Konami will never learn. But if they do learn, judges like myself will be almost useless. x_x
-John
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
Yeah.... Sacred Phoenix is just totally worded wrong when you consider D.D. Survivor and D.D. Scout Plane's effect.
If a card can activate its effect when removed from play, then Sacred Phoenix ought to be able to return no matter what, if removed from play.
Konami should just say they only want Sacred Phoenix to be "semi" powerful, and not as powerful as it really should be. I mean, come on... A Phoenix of legend is supposed to be able to come back if destroyed, regardless.
The Myth
The phoenix bird symbolizes immortality, resurrection and life after death. In ancient Greek and Egyptian mythology, it is associated with the sun god.
Only one phoenix exists at a time. When the bird felt its death was near, every 500 to 1,461 years, it would build a nest of aromatic wood and set it on fire. The bird then was consumed by the flames.
A new phoenix sprang forth from the pyre. It embalmed the ashes of its predecessor in an egg of myrrh and flew with it to Heliopolis, "city of the sun," where the egg was deposited on the altar of the sun god.
If a card can activate its effect when removed from play, then Sacred Phoenix ought to be able to return no matter what, if removed from play.
Konami should just say they only want Sacred Phoenix to be "semi" powerful, and not as powerful as it really should be. I mean, come on... A Phoenix of legend is supposed to be able to come back if destroyed, regardless.
The Myth
The phoenix bird symbolizes immortality, resurrection and life after death. In ancient Greek and Egyptian mythology, it is associated with the sun god.
Only one phoenix exists at a time. When the bird felt its death was near, every 500 to 1,461 years, it would build a nest of aromatic wood and set it on fire. The bird then was consumed by the flames.
A new phoenix sprang forth from the pyre. It embalmed the ashes of its predecessor in an egg of myrrh and flew with it to Heliopolis, "city of the sun," where the egg was deposited on the altar of the sun god.
masterwoo0 said:
Of course, to me Konami might think RFG is outer space instead of wooden fire that is its grave and thus the same rules would not apply.
If this card is destroyed by a card effect, Special Summon this card during your next Standby Phase. If you Special Summon this card in this way, destroy all Spell and Trap Cards on the field.
If Konami wants it only to be from the Graveyard then they need to add:
If this card is destroyed by a card effect and sent to the Graveyard, Special Summon this card during your next Standby Phase. If you Special Summon this card in this way, destroy all Spell and Trap Cards on the field.
That would fix the problems right there, but then you are going against the entire mythology of a phoenix in the first place. The way the card is worded right now, it should be return from the RFG no questions asked, unless of course it ran into a D.D. Warrior.
*tic*Tiso said:
*tic**tic*Tiso said:
*tic*Tiso said:
*tic*
*tic*
I would rant about your arrogance, but this is NOT THE PLACE TO RESPOND TO THIS!
Right, if its ashes still belonged to this world.masterwoo0 said:
But while it can come back from spiritual displacement, can it come back from physical displacement?
Or they can just make the rule that effects don't work in RFG unless the text specifically said so. After all, they define the interpretations of the texts.Tiso said:
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
That would work for me, although I'm just one voice of many.Raijinili said:
Raijinili said:
Maybe if you did not try to start a fight with me, which you clearly cannot, you would have used your brain, that thing you need to think, inside your head, in order to understand the entire point of this discussion everyone has been having. There is a ruling. A very BULL S*** ruling from Konami that is basically them saying: "Because we say it works this way even though it clearly does not say it on the card so niyah." As if you this is not the place to respond, why did you bother? You are the one who is arrogant. I love when people like you, hate to be proven wrong, and then get upset at everyone else. Grow up.
Back to Phoenix mythology. It dies. It is reborn from its own ashes. Never does it say the ashes have to be in a certain place. And regardless about that, if you bothered to read the posts you would have seen the entire discussion come to an end. We all agree how stupid it is to have a card say one thing and then have a ruling say another. This is just Konami being retarded, as usual, never knowing what to do with their own game. The problem would be fixed if A.) They would let it do what it says on the card, B.) They would errata the text with what I posted some posts ago. Either way there is no logical explaination why the card does not work the way we been debating with everyone else other than Konami insisting:
Because we say so.
Raijinili said:
No worries, I will. May as well just put it here, since this thread is rather active ...
Everyone: lay off the "wrong". Use "incorrect", "disagree", whatever. By the very nature of these debates, many opinions are thrown out there. Opinions are never wrong. They may be incorrect, invalid, mistaken, but never wrong.
Use information to back up your arguments, and stay focused on denouncing other information instead of other people.
masterwoo0 said:
That would be retarded and most assuredly be the end of the game. How would you like to play a game where the game mechanics change every few months? Next time they might change the fact you can only Normal or Special Summon once per turn. It is stupid. It would cause too many conflictions if they changed the way RFG is played. If it does not say it on the card then we will have conflicting rulings. Cards that let you go into your Deck, but do not say shuffle, while other cards that actually say shuffle in the end? Regardless if it is part of game mechanics that say you would shuffle, if it does not say it on the card why would we follow it if they are changing game mechanics like that? No the problem is easily solved: Errata Phoenix to say Graveyard or make it work the way the card says.
chaosruler
New Member
Didn't your other post just get deleted for aggressiveness? Keep the language down. Stay civil.
-John
-John
djp952 said:
The problem is, he went by his opinion. I backed mines up with facts. He did not. If I was arrogant, I would have been like:
"I am right. You are wrong. Ha ha. Now there."
In fact I even stated I was not trying to be smug about it, but I was right in that the fact that the card says one thing and the ruling makes it do another, which is retarded. There is no debate about it. The card says it clear as day. Read it. There is no reason why it would not come back from the RFG.
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
The problem is, Konami isnt going to change Phoenix's text, so it would be better to just change the way cards perform when they are removed from game.
How many cards would be affected by this? I can only think of one, that being Sacred Phoenix. In the future, any other similar cards that come out with a text close to Sacred Phoenix would also be affected, but at least you have a ruling in place.
Not everyone is going to be happy if they did change his text. All that would do is make another card everyone would hate as there would virtually be no way to get rid of him as long as he wasnt destroyed in Battle. At that point, all you need to do is get him in the Graveyard and Special Summon him anyway you can from there and keep destroying him. Your opponent would have no defense other than using up his resources to keep one monster off the field.
I really dont care to see him be able to come back from RFG. But I would rather have a clearer text or a better ruling stating why he can't, or why he can.
And further more, it's increasingly obvious that there will always be changes to rulings as long as they dont use the time inbetween set releases to give create a schedule of cards to be released at later times, and develop rulings for them ahead of time.
How many cards would be affected by this? I can only think of one, that being Sacred Phoenix. In the future, any other similar cards that come out with a text close to Sacred Phoenix would also be affected, but at least you have a ruling in place.
Not everyone is going to be happy if they did change his text. All that would do is make another card everyone would hate as there would virtually be no way to get rid of him as long as he wasnt destroyed in Battle. At that point, all you need to do is get him in the Graveyard and Special Summon him anyway you can from there and keep destroying him. Your opponent would have no defense other than using up his resources to keep one monster off the field.
I really dont care to see him be able to come back from RFG. But I would rather have a clearer text or a better ruling stating why he can't, or why he can.
And further more, it's increasingly obvious that there will always be changes to rulings as long as they dont use the time inbetween set releases to give create a schedule of cards to be released at later times, and develop rulings for them ahead of time.
Tiso said:
I couldn't care less about what the card says at this point. The fact is that you got a post deleted for a reason, and correct or incorrect, that's OUR opinion (mods), and if you don't tone it down a little and chill out you're be out of the conversation for 24 hours.
Stop worrying about everyone else and just stick to the topic at hand. If you don't like what someone says, or you think you're getting flamed/attacked, you let us know.
masterwoo0 said:
Ok explain to me how is it better that a card that needs only one word to work the way it is stated in its ruling is worse than changing the entire game mechanics? That is lunacy. No Konami should and COULD change the text, but as usual we are given Konami too much credit in thinking they know how to manage their own game, which they do not. Is it any wonder that Duel Masters smokes it in Japan?
djp952 said:
You could not care what a card says? Then you must obviously must not care that the sky is blue, the Earth is round. You must care that 365 days a year you will age 1 year. Seriously. What the card says is important. You should care. You play the game. You play the card. I think giving a smidge of care to the card would be in order. The card states what it can do. A nonsense ruling says otherwise. It is like a father telling their daughter she can date at the age she is at, but she can only date from within their race and when she askes why he would say because. Makes no sense. Just like the ruling on Sacred Phoenix. There are no opinions about this. You are ignoring what is in front of you. FACT. The card says how it works. A ruling that Konami made up clashes with it because it does not do what the card says. No opinions about that. Fact.
Tiso said:
And you sir, are seemingly ignoring what it is I'm trying to tell you. My interest in this thread is purely for peace-keeping at this point, thus I don't care about the topic itself, nor the facts/opinions presented. Perhaps I wasn't totally clear, and if so, I apologize. To be perfectly clear: I, djp952, am not participating in this discussion, I am watching for aggressive behaviors.
Please ignore my posts from a debate perspective, since they add no value to it.
You don't look at one word of a card like Bottomless Trap Hole and say it will automatically work with something else. You look at parts of the text such as "destroy and remove from play" to get a better and more accurate ruling on the situation. Any Phoenix that has been a victium of Bottomless Trap Hole has never hit the Graveyard first since the monster being affected by Bottomless Trap Hole isn't sent anywhere until the effect is resolved completely and successfully.Tiso said:
So far there's only two cards that activate when removed from play. You mentioned them. That's wonderful that you did and it proves how the ruling works. The only difference between Vampire Lord and Phoenix is how their summoning effect works. Keep in mind Twin-Headed Behemoth has a similar line of text as Phoenix for it's summoning. Yet we know if you Bottomless Trap Hole it when they first summon it that it won't come back.
Like I said, this is basic game mechanics and it isn't poorly defined. It's been defined and ruled on for a while now. I don't see all the fuss about it.
Note: Vampire Lord and Twin-Headed Behemoth are older cards than Phoenix and so is Bottomless Trap Hole. The ruling is older than Phoenix and card wordings get updated as the template evolves. This is how the game has been getting developed over the years.
Mechanics don't change every few months, they only seem to change when information is corrected, brought up, debated, and then finalized for judges to use as rulings and explainations to situations. I mean, you can look at the Dark World cards and see the new mechanics behind that.
So the answer is, Phoenix will not come back if removed from play from a card such as Bottomless Trap Hole. It doesn't activate when removed from play. There's only two cards that do that so far in the TCG. D.D. Survivor and D.D. Scout Plane.
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