Multiple effects activating in a chain at differnt points

J

John Danker

Administrator
One question I've never seen documented, or even asked for that matter....and I must admit that it doesn't happen very often....but it did happen to me a couple of years ago in a friendly match between Feroze and I....

If multiple effects are activated in a chain that begin a new chain after the current chain resolves....but those effects are activated at different points within the chain...does the SEGOC mechainic apply or do the effects all begin seperate chains with those effects being resolved in the reverse order of which they were activated?

Example (from my match with Feroze)

P2 has two face down S/T cards and a set Cyber Jar
P1 (turn player) attacks set Cyber Jar
P1 Sets MOF and summons Witch Of The Black Forest and puts Dark Hole in hand.
P2 Sets 2 copies of Needle Worm
P1 Activates Dark Hole (easy choice at this point)
P2 Chains Acid Trap Hole #1 targeting Needle Worm #1
P2 Chains Acid Trap Hole #2 targeting Needle Worm #2

Chain Resolves

P2's Acid Trap Hole #2 resolves flipping up Needle Worm #2 activating it's effect (but not resolving at this time) and destroying it.

P2's Acid Trap Hole #1 resolves flipping up Needle Worm #1 activating it's effect (but not resolving at this time) and destroying it.

P1's Dark Hole resolves destroying MOF and Witch Of The Black Forest who's effect activates

As you can see there were three effects waiting to resolve at the end of the current chain but all activating at different points within that chain. So what's the proper order of resolving those effects and is it a SEGOC scenario?
 
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Well, considering that in normal SEGOC chaining rules, I wouldn't say it is a SEGOC type of scenario.

SEGOC occurs when 2 effects activate simultaneously, in this case both Needle Worms were activated in different blocks, Witch was sent to the graveyard at the end of the chain.

Now being that the proper way to put effects in a chain, is first turn player mandatory, non-turn players mandatory, turn player optional, non-turn players optional, then:

chain link 1: Witch
chain link 2: Needle Worm (non-turn players choice)
chain link 3: Needle Worm (non-turn players choice)
 
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slither said:
Now being that the proper way to put effects in a chain, is first turn player mandatory, non-turn players mandatory, turn player optional, non-turn players optional, then:

chain link 1: Witch
chain link 2: Needle Worm (non-turn players choice)
chain link 3: Needle Worm (non-turn players choice)
Click to expand...

The problem is that they won't go on a chain. They'll each start their own chain would they not? (maybe I'm over thinking this) so those SEGOC rules of order or resolution wouldn't be applicable (or would they?) Don't you just love it when I think out loud in a confusseled sort of way (Note: Confusseled is technical judging term)
 
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I thought it was confuzzled or cornfused. I guess all three are acceptable. :D

The way I remember it (and keep in mind it's early in the day for someone like me) multiple effects being triggered within an existing chain do not form a chain. And resolution order is chosen based on a combination of who's turn it is and who controlled the effects that are waiting to resolve. The turn player getting priority to activate any effects he controlled first, in any order he chooses followed by the non-turn player. That's what I recall.

Why is it, John, you always come up with these kinds of questions either before or when I can't have my mourning cup of coffee? :needs to make coffee smiley:
 
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I can see that this is an issue that really needs to be cleared up, I'm getting a wide variety of answers.

Keep in mind that the effects are not chained to each other. They've activated at different times and all begin a NEW chain independant of one another. It wouldn't seem (seem being the key disclaimer word here) that they would be trying to activate at the same time since they all begin a new chain.
 
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Keep in mind that the effects are not chained to each other. They've activated at different times and all begin a NEW chain independant of one another. It wouldn't seem (seem being the key disclaimer word here) that they would be trying to activate at the same time since they all begin a new chain.
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Slither is correct.

Being activated at different times is not a factor here. They are Triggers, and will go on the chain at the next instance... remember, they do NOT activate at different times...they Trigger at different times but are activated together.

They form a chain, and they are all mandatory.

Witch is the TP's effect, so it goes first as [Chain Link 1].

The 2 NW's are placed in whatever order the OP wants them to be as [Chain Link 2] and [Chain Link 3].

[Chain Link 1] Witch of the Black Forest
[Chain Link 2] Needle Worm
[Chain Link 3] Needle Worm

They do NOT start there own individual chains, they form a chain together, that is exactly what SEGOC is, it is a special case where Spell Speed 1 effects actually chain together.
 
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:haveaday_ Curse you, nova, <shakes fist> for being right again.

I believe I was thinking of the resolution of lingring effects and mixing them up in there. But hey, I was trying to type half asleep with a squirming baby in one arm who doesn't know the meaning or the intimation of the word "stll".
 
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Once again Nova, THANK YOU for helping clear some of those things up. All those pieces were in my head, but they just weren't lined up. Thanks for the clarification on when an effect triggers and when it starts to activate.
 
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That sounds like a logical explination novastar and I thank you for your reply, however, that doesn't fit in with the explination of SEGOC in the FAQ....

<FAQ Quote>
Whenever you have simultaneous effects, resolve them in a chain, even if they are Spell Speed 1 effects. This is a special case when Spell Speed 1 effects can be chained to each other, because they are all trying to activate at the same time and the players are not choosing to activate them.

If only one player has simultaneous effects being activated, then that player can choose the order in which they resolve.
<End Quote from FAQ>

Notice in all examples given in the FAQ the effects activate at the same time. There is no example of effects attempting to resolve at the same time.

Are flip effects of monsters not activated at the time when they are flipped face up? Do they only "trigger" at that time and activate at a later point? If so, how is it that we can chain to the activation of a flip effect?

<feeling it quite possible I'm only confusing myself here>
 
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Hmm, I think the kicker is that the effects are indeed trying to activate at the same time.

The order of events described is still all a part of one chain, the Dark Hole/Acid/Acid chain. The events trigger, but they are not allowed to interrupt the current resolution of a chain. So they will actually activate the first chance they get.

If we stripped everything back to the simple example of 1 Needle Worm and Acid Trap Hole (not even a Dark Hole here) we still get the same effect. Acid Hole resolves, flipping Needle face up. In a sense Needle's effect triggers right now, but since we haven't finished resolving the effect of Acid, the "thinning" effect waits to actually activate. Acid will check Needle's defense, then destroy it. At that point, since the trigger had been made earlier during the resolution of an effect, Needle can resolve itself.

This make sense to me because we also have those optional trigger effects (such as Gilfer) that can actually miss the timing if there is something else that happens along the chain of events, their effects can't activate.

So when you expand this back into the larger scenario of your example, it adds back up. You have all of these effects that are triggering, but since none of them are continuous, they can't actually activate until the current chain of events has transpired. At that point they all activate at once. And since that happens, we go into our whole formula of Turn Player Mandatory, Opponent Player Mandatory...etc. But in this case, since they are all the effects controlled by the Turn Player, they are allowed to resolve in whatever order they please.
 
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The flip effect is "Triggered" upon being flipped but will have to wait to "Activate" at the next available space a chain can be created. Which I believe can insulate the earlier effects in a SEGOC chain from negation by Divine Wrath for example. In your given scenario neither Witch nor the first Needle Worm in the chain could be negated by Divine Wrath, only the second Needle Worm would be eligible to be negated.

Somebody please correct me if I've got that wrong.
 
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I believe that the only one who caught was I was implying was in fact novastar, I never stated that this was a SEGOC, this is a normal resolution chain and as one, you can't say, ok:

Chain Link 1: Witch

now another chain:

Chain Link 1: Needle Worm #1

now another chain:

Chain Link 1: Needle Worm #2

you must put them in a single chain for resolution.
 
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So what it all boils down to is effects not being able to activate in the middle of a resolving chain (with the exception of Archfiends...seems like there is always an exception doesn't it?)

The way it had been worded to me before by others didn't make sense and fogged my train of thought. It had been worded to me that, "Needle Worm's effect activates at this time but waits to begin a new chain" That put my train of thought going in the wrong direction.

Thank you ALL for your input in helping me straighten this out in my own mind. This is exactly the reason I hang my hat at CoG!
 
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<smiles /> If anything John, we owe YOU for helping clarify a lot of things that us lowly L2s and L1s still need to figure out 8^D Not to mention the fact that you're our "unofficial ambassador" to the L3 list 8^D

I think there is a lot of new fine grain mechanics starting to get ironed out with these new cards that have recently come out (the Dark World sitution, more instances where effects are activating simultaneously, etc.) that will really help smooth out gameplay down the road.
 
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slither said:
I believe that the only one who caught was I was implying was in fact novastar, I never stated that this was a SEGOC, this is a normal resolution chain and as one, you can't say, ok:

Chain Link 1: Witch

now another chain:

Chain Link 1: Needle Worm #1

now another chain:

Chain Link 1: Needle Worm #2

you must put them in a single chain for resolution.
Click to expand...
But Nova aGreed that is WAS a SEGOC situation...lol
Novastar said:
They form a chain, and they are all mandatory.

Witch is the TP's effect, so it goes first as [Chain Link 1].

The 2 NW's are placed in whatever order the OP wants them to be as [Chain Link 2] and [Chain Link 3].

[Chain Link 1] Witch of the Black Forest
[Chain Link 2] Needle Worm
[Chain Link 3] Needle Worm

They do NOT start there own individual chains, they form a chain together, that is exactly what SEGOC is, it is a special case where Spell Speed 1 effects actually chain together.
Click to expand...
 
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slither said:
I believe that the only one who caught was I was implying was in fact novastar, I never stated that this was a SEGOC, this is a normal resolution chain and as one, you can't say, ok:

Chain Link 1: Witch

now another chain:

Chain Link 1: Needle Worm #1

now another chain:

Chain Link 1: Needle Worm #2

you must put them in a single chain for resolution.
Click to expand...

SEGOC is a single chain. And yes this is a SEGOC. But we all understood your correct assertion that it was a single chain and you correctly listed the chain links in the proper order. John was simply thinking out loud wondering if the triggering of the effects at different points would force them to create individual chains instead of one. I for one certainly saw that you had hit the nail on the head Slither.
 
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Yeah, I do that a lot here, think out loud. While it may not be the ultimate "professional" thing to do for a judge I figure that the thought pattern will help people to understand the issue and how things can be misunderstood.

Unlike the judge's list where there is only time for a ruling, usually without explination or extrapolation, we have the luxury of time and response here, I try to take advantage of that.

Understanding how someone came to a certain conclusion often gives us more insight as to what the problem is. We all also learn more and correct trains of thought be this, not just get the correct answer on the question at hand. This question was a perfect example of that.
 
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