Silly technicality?

J

John Danker

Administrator
We know that the rulings for Apprentice Magician has changed....we can't really name where it activates can we? It's in that "zone not to be named" that it activates right?

Can you use chain Divine Wrath to Apprentice Magician's effect then? <laffin>....I guess Divine Wrath doesn't state that the effect needs to activated in any paticular place <shrug>....just one of those silly questions I've been asked that stops and makes you think.
 
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"¢ "Apprentice Magician's" effect activates at the same time as when monsters are sent to the Graveyard. But it does not have to be sent to the Graveyard; you get to Special Summon a new monster when "Apprentice Magician" is destroyed as a result of battle, even if "Banisher of the Light" is in play.
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So it's not a Graveyard effect.

"¢ If you take control of your opponent's "Apprentice Magician", and it is destroyed as a result of battle, then your opponent (the original owner) will get to Special Summon. Because "Apprentice Magician" is no longer on your side of the field, it is now in the opponent's Graveyard (or removed from play area).
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So it's not a field effect.

That's confusing. One of these rulings must be wrong. Personally, by card text (which says nothing about being sent anywhere) I think it should be a field effect. However, Skill Drain doesn't negate effects of monsters no longer on the field, so it still shouldn't negate the Special Summon.

Or something. I'm not too clear on the mechanics of battles and related Steps.
 
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Maruno said:
That's confusing. One of these rulings must be wrong.
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Fallacy Non-Sequitur.

This is YGO we're talking about. Just because something doesn't make any sense doesn't mean it's wrong. =/ Apprentice Magician's effect resolves in a limbo state that is neither the Graveyard nor the Field. This is similar to how Solemn Judgment destroys monsters when they are neither in the hand nor on the Field. The rulings aren't wrong. They just assume an alternate state which has never been specified by game mechanics. Effectively, a limbo mechanic was invented solely for a few cards whose effects were too confusing without it.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
"False Dilemma," not non-sequitur
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Bifurcation, right. I don't know what I was thinking. I read it too fast. @_@
Careful there Jason <soft chuckle> people may mark this quote from you for future reference in debate!
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Well I committed a bit of a fallacy there myself. I mis-stated my case. Things should always make sense, even in YGO. But what I was pointing out (or trying to) is Maruno's fallacy that monsters in the destruction process must exist either on the Field or in the Graveyard. This ignores other possible options. Of course the reason he ignored other options is because the rule book never mentions any. What I was trying to say is that there can be a conflict between the starter-deck rule books and the rulings we get from Konami, and that conflict can often make no sense at all. Of course we have to go with what Konami says. No matter how much I may hate it.
 
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Sigh...I can't think of anything funny to say.

Maybe it works like Giant Kozaky. It resolves where ever it is after being destroyed. Graveyard, RFG-pile, deck (via Grave Protector).
 
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Maybe it works like Giant Kozaky. It resolves where ever it is after being destroyed. Graveyard, RFG-pile, deck (via Grave Protector).
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You know, I could have figured that out if I had actually read the rulings Maruno posted. I guess the thing where I've gotten eight hours of sleep in the past three days may be starting to take effect.

You're right. It doesn't resolve in limbo. Which isn't to say that no limbo state exists. It just resolves after it has been destroyed ... wherever that may be.
 
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Maruno said:
"¢ "Apprentice Magician's" effect activates at the same time as when monsters are sent to the Graveyard. But it does not have to be sent to the Graveyard; you get to Special Summon a new monster when "Apprentice Magician" is destroyed as a result of battle, even if "Banisher of the Light" is in play.
Click to expand...
So it's not a Graveyard effect.

"¢ If you take control of your opponent's "Apprentice Magician", and it is destroyed as a result of battle, then your opponent (the original owner) will get to Special Summon. Because "Apprentice Magician" is no longer on your side of the field, it is now in the opponent's Graveyard (or removed from play area).
Click to expand...
So it's not a field effect.

That's confusing. One of these rulings must be wrong. Personally, by card text (which says nothing about being sent anywhere) I think it should be a field effect. However, Skill Drain doesn't negate effects of monsters no longer on the field, so it still shouldn't negate the Special Summon.

Or something. I'm not too clear on the mechanics of battles and related Steps.
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I'm reaching here. Maybe the only thing they they're implying (or the only thing that ends up being implied) was that control of the effect is determined by who's Graveyard or RFG Zone the card is in, and nothing else. In other words, it's still a field effect, but only for purposes of control. <Pulls muscle reaching>
 
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Digital Jedi said:
I'm reaching here. Maybe the only thing they were implying (or the only thing that ends up being implied) was that control of the effect is determined by who's Graveyard or RFG Zone the card is in, and nothing else. In other words, it's still a field effect, but not for purposes of control. <Pulls muscle reaching>
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As far as I can see, you're taking legitimate and valid rulings, assuming something opposite of what they dictate, and then trying to figure out how to twist the rulings to make it sound like your "reach" isn't entirely implausible.

What is the reasoning that initially led you to the conclusion that the rulings are incorrect?
 
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Jason_C said:
As far as I can see, you're taking legitimate and valid rulings, assuming something opposite of what they dictate, and then trying to figure out how to twist the rulings to make it sound like your "reach" isn't entirely implausible.

What is the reasoning that initially led you to the conclusion that the rulings are incorrect?
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Replace the last use of the word "not" in my post, with the word "only". The word should have been "only".
 
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Digital Jedi said:
Replace the last use of the word "not" in my post, with the word "only". The word should have been "only".
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That clears it up a lot, but what I said stands IF your use of the term "Field effect" has anything to do with resolution.

For clarification: Apprentice Magician's effect triggers when it's destroyed, which would effectively be before it has been sent to the Graveyard. This means it can be considered to activate on the Field. However, it will resolve after destruction, at which point it will presumably no longer be on the field. It will NOT be in a limbo state, but instead will be wherever the card itself has landed (which under normal circumstances is the Graveyard, but could also be the RFP pile or hand or deck, conceivably).
 
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Jason_C said:
That clears it up a lot, but what I said stands IF your use of the term "Field effect" has anything to do with resolution.

For clarification: Apprentice Magician's effect triggers when it's destroyed, which would effectively be before it has been sent to the Graveyard. This means it can be considered to activate on the Field. However, it will resolve after destruction, at which point it will presumably no longer be on the field. It will NOT be in a limbo state, but instead will be wherever the card itself has landed (which under normal circumstances is the Graveyard, but could also be the RFP pile or hand or deck, conceivably).
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Why do you think I pulled a muscle?
 
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Jason_C said:
That clears it up a lot, but what I said stands IF your use of the term "Field effect" has anything to do with resolution.

For clarification: Apprentice Magician's effect triggers when it's destroyed, which would effectively be before it has been sent to the Graveyard. This means it can be considered to activate on the Field. However, it will resolve after destruction, at which point it will presumably no longer be on the field. It will NOT be in a limbo state, but instead will be wherever the card itself has landed (which under normal circumstances is the Graveyard, but could also be the RFP pile or hand or deck, conceivably).
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Can an effect start on the field and end somewhere else? I rather think not. I'm only trying to argue the Skill Drain ruling (how the Special Summon is not negated), by saying that Apprentice Magician is considered not face-up on the field only for the purposes of Skill Drain (because it is considered destroyed in battle), even though the card itself (and thus the effect) is still on the field.

This reaching malarky really is tough, I tell you.
 
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Apprentice Magician isn't a field effect. Once Apprentice Magician is destroyed as a result of battle it will activate in the new location the card goes to. Whether it be the Graveyard or RFP pile, it will not activate on the field because of this.

The rulings don't have some special meaning to in them that's hidden. They're clear on how Apprentice Magician is suppose to function.

The real question you guys should be asking yourselves is if you can activate Divine Wrath in this scenario.

Player A has a face up Defense Position Grave Protector and a face up Archfiend Soldier in Attack Position with a face down Divine Wrath and one card in hand. Player B has a face down Defense Position Apprentice Magician.

Player A declares his attack with Gemini Elf and selects Player B's face down Apprentice Magician. Gemini Elf destroys Apprentice Magician as a result of battle and now Player A chains Divine Wrath to Apprentice Magician since Grave Protector has a Continuous Effect and cannot be chained to.

The question is, since Apprentice Magician ends up going into the Deck, could you still Divine Wrath it? =P
 
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Tkwiget said:
Player A has a face up Defense Position Grave Protector and a face up Archfiend Soldier in Attack Position with a face down Divine Wrath and one card in hand. Player B has a face down Defense Position Apprentice Magician.

Player A declares his attack with Gemini Elf and selects Player B's face down Apprentice Magician.
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Silly technicality.

Also, ignore this post.
 
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