Thunder Dragon

[ChaosMachine]

Can i discard a Thunder Dragon if the other two are already in the graveyard? and will Thunder Dragons effect trigger if discarded for Dark Core?

 

[masterwoo0]

Remember that Giant Rat is an optional effect and Sangan is a mandatory effect.

Its an optional effect to search or not to search, meaning, I dont have to look at my deck if I dont want to, for a monster to go to my hand (or any other card, so NO SPELL OR TRAPS EITHER!!).

If I DO look, then the same would apply as I stated. You SHOULD know what is left in your deck.

As far as Sangan, his effect doesnt really cause much of an uproar since the monster isnt being Special Summoned unless its Watapon.

 

[Tkwiget]

The Reasoning I can see behind how you can't search for zero Thunder Dragon is because of the fact the Game State sees that you searched out for two Thunder Dragon cards to add to your hand. Then it won't allow you to search at all. The contents of your hand may not be public knowledge to your opponent, but it certainly is public knowledge to the Game State. Since it's the third hidden pair of eyes looking over the game and checking to see what is and isn't legal.

Just how I normally deal with this kind of thing. @_@

 

[masterwoo0]

Only Game Rules govern cards in play, not Game States. If this were a Sealed Draft, the rules change. That would mean that I could possibly have 5 or more Thunder Dragons in my Deck.

If you search your Deck, you are looking for a Thunder Dragon, plain and simple. If you find none, that is the amount you declare, "0" returned to hand. If you find 2, then you can make the choice to return 1 or 2 to hand. Because you can return up to 2, it is sensible to say that if you have none, that returning up to 0 is not a problem.

 

[slither]

You can't know anything, neither does the game, say that in my first draw I drew 3 Thunder Dragons, or heck what if I only have 1 TDragon in my whole deck JUST for discarding purposes.

The game will not have any recolection of that whatsoever. That's why I do incline a bit more to you can search '0'.

 

[Tkwiget]

Sealed Draft have their own set of rules since that's a completely different format compared to a regular tournament.

Now that we're on the same page. Why do I still feel someone is disagreeing with you guys? @_@ I kinda just dropped out of the whole discussion. I wasn't in a very happy mood. I told Slither about that on MSN when I did that.

I suppose the whole zero argument, because it does make since. Just keep in mind I use the term "Game State" not as the current situation, but more in the sense of a name for the element that watches for gameplay errors.

From the way that I see Thunder Dragon functioning is more of an effect like Flip Effects. It's mandatory, but the amount is optional. And the point of discarding a Thunder Dragon implies the search for a Thunder Dragon.

@_@ At least we can all agree that we can search for zero Thunder Dragon.

<thinks about finding a place to sleep, cause he hates mondays..>

 

[novastar]

You can't know anything, neither does the game, say that in my first draw I drew 3 Thunder Dragons, or heck what if I only have 1 TDragon in my whole deck JUST for discarding purposes.

The game will not have any recolection of that whatsoever. That's why I do incline a bit more to you can search '0'.

But in general it's been pushed for a while now, that activating manual effects must be done under the pretence that the effect is trying to accomplish something.

Searching for 0 means that nothing will happen, and you are simply activating an effect for nothing. The shuffle only occurs if you actually search your deck.

The only case i could see for 0, is just deciding to do that when you resolve, but it still doesn't sit right. In the case of Triggers like Tomato, ok, i can see deciding not to summon, because activation is forced.

Being an Ignition, to me, activating is making a choice to search for at least 1 TD. That is what seperates this particular effect from the others mentioned, as those are all Triggers.

 

[Cropz]

well, what I said is that you must search for at least one, IF you still have 'Thunder Dragon' left in your deck, nothing keeps you from activating the effect when you have none left, that's the only situation where you could search for zero.

 

[novastar]

Of course nothing stops you from activating the effect (because its a Deck search), but the intention is still to search out at least 1, and if you do infact find 1, you must take it at that point. You can't decide not to take it.

If you don't have any, you would of course take 0. I still believe you would have to show to prove you have none as well.

 

[Maruno]

But in general it's been pushed for a while now, that activating manual effects must be done under the pretence that the effect is trying to accomplish something.

And Thunder Dragon's effect will always do something. Shuffling. It's part of the effect, in that it's written on the card. When you activate its effect, you MUST search for a number of Thudner Dragons (including zero) from your Deck, and then you MUST shuffle said Deck. That's the whole effect.

It's not even a question of "what if there are no Thunder Dragons in my Deck? Then I'd be activating an effect that does nothing". Shuffling is always a part of the effect. Therefore it'll always do something.

And as per Penguin Soldier, you could choose to not add any Thunder Dragons to your hand, even if there are more of them in your Deck.

Est my opinion. The way I see it, it all works.

 

[masterwoo0]

And Thunder Dragon's effect will always do something. Shuffling. It's part of the effect, in that it's written on the card.

"Shuffling" is not part of Thunder Dragon's effect, any more than putting your Deck face-down after doing it is.

It's a Game Mechanic. Anytime you look through your Deck, you shuffle it. There is not one effect that causes you to look at your cards, other than the top card (or, at most, "top 5" cards with Big Eye's effect), without shufflling.

 

[ancient_duelist]

Of course nothing stops you from activating the effect (because its a Deck search), but the intention is still to search out at least 1, and if you do infact find 1, you must take it at that point. You can't decide not to take it.

If you don't have any, you would of course take 0. I still believe you would have to show to prove you have none as well.

I am not sure if this ruling for Next to be Lost has any bearing on this discussion, but it seems to me that it might.

"You can target a Limited monster with "Next to be Lost", but you don't search or shuffle your Deck. Essentially, there is no effect."

Seems to me this is saying that if you know your deck does not contain a certain card, then you can not search for it and shuffle your deck. Would the same apply to cards like Thunder Dragon if you know there are none in your deck? I am not saying it does, but this is still a very interesting ruling. I don't think there has been any other ruling that says anything like this?

 

[novastar]

Very good find, and it is the first of it's kind from what i see.

I think that is one of the rulings that Curtis is refering to when saying that Konami is going off the deep end, and changing things.

That ruling should not be, effects have never had concept of Limited/Ban lists, and you should have to search and show.

Maybe Konami is instituting a "fail to find" rule now, in an attempt to rid the game of this silly "show to prove" stuff.

I'm gonna look more into it.

 

[masterwoo0]

On one hand, it reinforces the fact that you can still select a restricted card for a search, even if it is already on the field, but it doesnt say that you have to be the original owner. You can Creature Swap, Mind Control, Change of Heart, Shien's Spy (since its a Trap Card, if your opponent gives you the monster, you can activate it), Snatch Steal, Dark Necrofear, Brain Control, Brain Jacker, etc....

So, even if you select a limited/restricted card, it can still resolve and you should still be able to search your deck because it may be in YOUR Deck, even if it isnt in your opponents any longer.

So, realistically, I dont see why it shouldnt be able to resolve regardless.

 

[novastar]

Good point, as knowledge of the Deck contents obviously can't be an activation requirement.

It's VERY odd to see this ruling, as effects traditionally have not been "list conscience" and this ruling is significant.

The search is not written as optional, the effect is (that being a manual effect by YOU), so the search should occur no matter what.

Maybe the wording here is misleading.

 

[masterwoo0]

Well, what other effect compares to Memory Crusher?? It took how many sets before Fusions became more than an "afterthought" to the game? Most people carried Fusions and had no way of even summoning them. They just had them for "Show". Now, they can be punished for being arrogant!!! lol

Whats next?

Side Splitter
Nomal Spell
Effect
"Call a card. If your opponent has "xx" card in his/her Side Deck, remove it from play for the remainder of the Match and they may no longer use their Side Deck since it no longer contains 15 Cards."

 

[slither]

We'll if you refer to my post on #84, I did a point about "deck knwoledge", now I really don't see Next to be Lost's effect that of a mislead, because regardless of anything, one can know for a fact what can you expect from your deck.

Rules: only 3 copies of a card unless semi-restricted, restricted or banned.

Now I could understand effect like Magician's Circle, searching a Spellcaster or such, you don't have a recall of all spellcasters and the number of each one you have in the deck.

But the fact remains that you do still know the number of copies that you might or might not have in your deck from a "single" card.

Now I know that does not apply if you know for a fact that you have a monster and you don't wish to retrieve it, but it certainly makes this for a more extensive comprehension of what really means to "know" or consult with your own deck.

 

[ancient_duelist]

Good point, as knowledge of the Deck contents obviously can't be an activation requirement.

Why can't it? You should know what cards are in your deck when you begin. You know what is on the field, in your hand, and in your graveyard, so you know what is left in the deck. There is precedent for prohibiting the activation of an effect that will not do anything, so why not prohibit searching for a card you know is not there?

I am not saying this is right or even that I agree with it, but I can see how Konami could come to this conclusion if that is what they are doing. Very interesting.

 

[novastar]

You might know, but effects don't, and the effect determines activation requirements not you.

Effects have never been Limited/Forbidden List conscience because they are floating, and outside of the game mechanics themselves.

You build the Deck, and as far as effects are concerned, your Deck is just a bunch of cards with no names, text or stats.

 

[Maruno]

Exactly. The "3 cards per Deck unless they're on The List, in which case follow that" rule is simply an imposed guide that tells you what is allowed in a Duel. It in itself is not a game mechanic. There is no game mechanic (that I know of) that counts the number of cards elsewhere, looks at your Deck list, and decides what cards remain in your Deck. Your Deck list itself is not a game mechanic, and therefore cannot affect the game state at all. If you played the game with just mechanics, you'd still have the proper game, but you could have a Deck composed of six Raigekis and nothing else.

Since Deck building does not take place in a Duel, the rules that govern what is allowed in your Deck should equally not affect a Duel itself. This also goes for Deck lists. Because why should they? According to the game state, as many people have said in many other threads, a player's Deck contains an unknown number of unknown cards (unless effects like Big Eye and The Inexperienced Spy get in the way). So if the Deck contents is unknown, how can The Limited/Forbidden List apply at all? If it must apply, then it would only apply once the card is in a place where it can be identified (that is, anywhere other than the Deck). But that leads to problems, because what if you run a Harpie's Feather Duster in advanced format? As long as you don't draw it then your Deck is legal? Doesn't sound right.

My point is that you could still activate Thunder Dragon's effect, even if the other two are in your Graveyard or otherwise not in your Deck, because the "3 cards per Deck unless they're on The List, in which case follow that" rule doesn't exist during an actual Duel.

 

[ancient_duelist]

You might know, but effects don't, and the effect determines activation requirements not you.

Effects have never been Limited/Forbidden List conscience because they are floating, and outside of the game mechanics themselves.

You build the Deck, and as far as effects are concerned, your Deck is just a bunch of cards with no names, text or stats.

That is one way of looking at it. Here is another:

Mystical Space Typhoon is a piece of cardboard in your hand. It does not know anything about activation requirements, but you do. You know that you can not activate Mystical Space Typhoon unless there is at least one Spell or Trap card on the field.

Next to be Lost is a piece of cardboard in your hand. It does not know anything about the Limited List, but you do. You know that if you target a card on the Limited List with Next to be Lost you will not get to search and shuffle your Deck.

Thunder Dragon is a piece of cardboard in your hand. It does not know if there is another Thunder Dragon in your Deck, but you do. You know that you can not discard Thunder Dragon to search your Deck for another Thunder Dragon unless there is at least one in your Deck.

I believe the ruling on Next to be Lost makes this scenario very possible. At the very least, it is something to think about.